veiled4allah: Sick

Peter said:

Total comments: 16

I was about as angry as it gets watching the images. But I think that it is important to remember that, in the context in which those guys were killed and their bodies desecrated, Islam plays very little role. In terms of "resistance" in Fallujah, it is mainly motivated by pro-Baathist, rather than any attempt at pro-Islamic, sentiment. No matter what these guys were yelling, Fallujah is a hot bed of those who benefited the most under the Baath regime (at the expense of the rest of Iraq). They want their privileges returned. In that sense their real anger isn't even really simply with the US occupation. I don't think Muslims should at all have to feel defensive or anything like it about the actions of these criminals. Neither do I think that Islam is anyway tarnished or compromised. These guys remind me of the (Christian) Serbian militias in Bosnia, the warlord Aideed's militia in Mogadishu, etc.: they can invoke religion all they want. In the end, the desire for theft and/or some form of self-aggrandizement is their true motivation. Iraq has some of holiest sites for Shiites, and yet their has been (to my knowledge) little or no religious violence in those places. And, however much they hated Sadaam and don't want us to leave until the country is stabilized, it must really chagrin the Shiite clerics and their followers that US troops patrol near their holy sites, that they can look up on leaving the Mosque and see Blackhawks, etc. I don't blame them for feeling that way. But you don't see them doing these kind of nasty things. Why? B/c any resistance they offer would have to be justified under Islam, and they know that these kind of acts can't be so justified. Today's appalling events were the work of Baathists, not Muslims. (Think of it this way: the guys that did this can invoke Allah all they want. The fact is that if they ever got power again they would go right back to severely persecuting truly religious Muslims, who represent a threat to unjust and totalitarian political institutions.)

Randy said:

Total comments: 1

Subject: Those savage kids are Baathists??

Watch the video or pictres on the internet... They are mostly kids and teenagers. They can't tell Baathist from Ansaar. Who's teaching them this savagery? They did not cheer for Saddam. They called out Allah is Great, while beating, burning, and dismembering dead bodies.

Don't fool yourself. Islamic world has a huge problem with extremism. People like you can help. I really belive that. But moderate muslims must accept the problem, before they try to solve it.

It's indeed a very sad day for all of us. I wish US leave Iraq ASAP!

Peter said:

Total comments: 16

Subject: You watch the video

Randy,
Yes, there are children there. But I have watched the video very carefully: the main participants and criminals that you see are all clearly over age 16. The fact that children joined the crowd, or chanted "Islamic slogans," means basically nothing in terms of my central hypothesis. Fallujah is a Baathist stronghold and there is a strong community sympathy with the Hussein regime in that area. That is the source of the resistance to the US, not Islam. Basically, nearly all of Iraq is Muslim. Don't you find it thus more than a bit curious that an enormous portion of the violence has been ascribed to regions and people associated with Baathism?
The only "Islamic" resistance to the US has been by Ansaar (and they are distinct from the Baathists) and attacks like these are not their m.o. Ansaar has conducted light and defensive guerilla ops near there rural strongholds (in the north) and al Queda-style attacks elsewhere. They don't have the organization to put together attacks like that that we saw in Fallujah. In Fallujah there is only one group organized enough to do this. Guess who?
My central point was that regardless of what these guys say, their main motivation is not Islam but the return to days of milk and honey for themselves under Baath rule.
And I don't quite get how children serve as evidence for your position. Much of my family came from Belfast and let me tell you something Randy: even small children knew the score on the IRA's streets. The knew it because, like children everywhere, they aped what they saw adults doing.

I remember very vividly an incident that occurred during the war in Bosnia. There was a Serbian paramilitary gang headed by a well-known Serb gangster (and I mean in the true Mafia sense). These guys basically entered Muslim villages and raped, tortured, looted, burned and killed. Well, on one occasion one of these "soldiers" was captured on video kicking a dead Muslim woman's head like a soccer ball as he kissed the crucifix around his neck. Now, are you suggesting, Randy, that this mawkish exhibitionism on his part would really change your opinion of his actions? It would allow you to forget that he is basically a career criminal who has taken up the opportunity to commit felonies on a grand scale and get away with it? It would make you think "no, no, wait, he kissed his crucifix as he did it: it therefore must be that just like the Blues Brothers he is really doing this because of God"? Give me a break.
But then why would you basically assign a different standard in terms of analyzing the motivations of these people in Fallujah?
Before you ascribe the actions of a deranged mob in one town to Islam, maybe you should study the history of that town a bit more. It is probably second onlt to Tikrit as a Baath stronghold.
Your commentary reminds me of the really big danger of the video clip age: people can be very emotionally disturbed by what they see (eg I'll never forget seeing our guys getting dragged through the streets of Mogadishu). And they are tempted to draw sweeping conclusions from the images they see. But images are no substitute for a clear background understanding of history, context, motivation, etc.

Peter said:

Total comments: 16

Subject: video

My breakdown still did not come through fully. I'll try again:
Those under age 10 constituted perhaps 5 to 10 percent of the crowd.
Those age 10 to 16 were maybe another 5 to 10 percent.
Those roughly 16-20 were probably about 15 to 20 percent of the mob.
The rest are clearly older than 20.

burhan said:

Total comments: 2

Subject: Reaction

Much to my surprise, peoples reactions to this haven't been what I've expected. I had expected quite an anti-mulism backlash on radio talk shows, and in the media, but have seen very little of that. Has anyone had similar experiences?

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