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Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
ok, then, what exactly ARE the "clear and well-defined set of policy goals" that Muslim Ameicans need to achieve?\are these goals in our interest as American muslims or are they intended to benefit muslims elsewhere?
and how specificallly does Kucinich meet those goals?
and hpw specifically does Dean NOT meet those goals?
I think these are essential questions that you should elucidate - right now you have very good general advice about bloc voting in general, but you provide no evidence for the specific assertion on Kucinich that follows the generality. Make a case to the anmerican muslim specifically on the issues and let's see.
Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
In a previous posting, I discussed the endorsement process, and referred back to that post here. The endorsing organizations have provided their list of criteria, and I have taken that as the set of clearly-defined policy goals that I mentioned.I have written up a case for Kucinich in response to the endorsement criteria, and it is currently available at the Muslims for Kucinich blog that I linked to. As soon as I have time, I will repost the information here. Since I did not have time earlier this morning, I provided the link to the other site so that people were not left entirely hanging. I apologize if this has inconvenienced you.
I await your case for Dean. As referenced in the previous post about the endorsement process, the only case for Dean so far presented (by Shadi Hamid) is all about Dean's electability and does nothing to address the other endorsement criteria that have been established. Since brother Shadi has failed to complete the case for Dean, perhaps you will do so instead.
Once again, I appreciate your patience and your indulgence. Thank you.
Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
to be honest, I dont see the need for a specific "muslim case" for Dean. I see Dean's appeal - and the neccessity of defeating Bush - as trumping any other concerns.Regardless, you're exhorting muslims to wake up and recognize that Kucinich is the candidate that meets their needs. I did look at the M4K site but found no info on muslim-specific issues, and there wasnt any link in this post to the previous one that you refered to in your comment. no pressure, this is a good coversation and i intend to link to your post from the unofficia dean blog (where Brian Ulrich also had some comments about muslims and Dean there). ill definitely be interested when you can get these issues reposted, as it will make a good base for discussion.
Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
If you are unwilling to provide a case for Dean according to the specific endorsement criteria that form the basis of this discussion, then don't be surprised if Dean is not given consideration. You are welcome to persuade Muslims to support Dean by whatever means you feel are most appropriate. However, if you want to play in this debate, you need to submit an entry. Making the case for Dean is not my job. Making the case for Kucinich is. I am also providing the background information, as a public service, but my role in this is purely partisan.You can't have it both ways, Aziz. If you wish to dispute my argument in favor of bloc voting, you are welcome to do so. If you wish to provide an alternate criterion for selecting whom to give the bloc vote (where I've defined it as most closely representing Muslim interests), you are welcome to do so. But if you accept both the argument for bloc voting and the criterion, then you have to present your case or concede the game. I expect that you do dispute either the argument in favor of bloc voting or the criterion, in which case you should be posting about that and not worry about the rest of this.
Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
Salam Aziz,The Muslims specific issues that Kucinich supports include:
- Ending the occupation of Iraq. He has a 90 plan day to get the UN, in and US out.
- Just peace in the Middle East.
- Total Repeal of the Patriot Act
Secondly, Islam as a religion emphazies Huqooq Al-Ibad (the rights of all of Allah's creations). That means building a society which ensures that all of its members are taken care of. That the sick are not left without healthcare, the poor don't have to go to sleep without food, the willing and able people are able to get a job with decent livable wages. Kucinich's social program is geared at building that kind of society, and is much more comprehensive than Dean's plan. I encourage you to look at the candidacy of Kucinich as a whole, as well as on issues having a direct impact on Muslims. You will find that he comes out on top consistently, Inshallah.
I also strongly believe that Kucinich is the most electable Democrat (much more so than Dean), should he win the nomination. I can back this up with some reasoning, but let's leave that as a subject for another thread.
It is important for Muslims to support Kucinich early, so that they can play an important role in helping him to get nominated. It is possible.
Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
But AM, you havent made the case for Kucinich yet! why should I make a case for Dean when you've assumed the burden of proof? you've said to muslims: wake up! I'm just waiting for the evidence. Its not fair pla to now insist I make a case for Dean in order to refute your assertion that muslims should vote en blocin the primary for Kucinich.BTW I agree with the bloc argument in teh abstract, so im hardly going to disagree with your excellent formulation of it. But as I said, you followed that by an assertion without evidence. I'm waiting.
Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
Give over, Aziz. There's nothing stopping you from presenting your case early, especially since you said you didn't need to wait for the specific Muslim criteria because you don't think they're necessary. Since you don't have to wait on me to post them, why not get started?Don't yank me around, OK. You may think this is a cute little game to put me on the spot, but I am in my own poor way trying to encourage a serious debate and I would appreciate your either taking part seriously or letting someone else do so, rather than playing some game with me.
Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
Since so many americans don't even bother to vote because they feel it is hopeless......the goal should be to include all minority organizations and align with them....get the African Americans registered....getting people just registered to vote would be a huge undertaking. An organization, called The League of Women Voters,(they are non-partisian) does just that....join the league of women voters in your area and get involved. After the scandle in Florida over voting irregularities, volunteeers are also needed to monitor the voting process! Bush should have never won in Florida.....keep up the good work!Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
AM, I have no interest in playing "gotcha" on these issues, I am being serious. I dont think Ive been inreasonable, but if you feel (for teh record, wrongly) that Im haranguing you unfairly and with insincere intent, I'll stop.I noted your latest post and appreciate the clarification. I'll proceed with linking and analysis on my blogs accordingly. Perhaps comments are teh wrong forum for these discussions.
Subject: Re: the politics of bloc voting
I don't think that you're "haranguing" me, but I did feel that we were having trouble getting to a serious debate. I don't expect you to agree with me, but I do hope that we can debate what are actually the points of difference between us, and I suspect that these are much more than Kucinich vs. Dean. I'm glad that my new post helped to clarify things, al-hamdulillah.