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Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
veiled4allah I'm happy that you posted these book titles because I'm a traditional muslim and family has been for generations. I was always curious if I really had to wear the hijab (veil) or if it was just for modesty now I can get real answers from that book that you recommended.Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
For me, one of the most interesting concepts from El-Guindi's book is the concept that the veil provides portable private space. It is similar to the way that for Muslims the whole earth is a masjid and when we choose to pray in a particular spot: for that moment in time we've converted that little piece of earth into sacred space.So with veiling practices, they contributes to the de-sexualization of the public arena and a person's hijab is their portable private space.
Another interesting piece on veiling is Katherine Bullock's Bullock Rethinking Muslim Women and the Veil: Challenging Historical and Modern Stereotypes, (International Institute of Islamic Thought, 2002). Bullock has a fascinating chapter on the hijab and feminism. That the hijab can be a way of reclaiming one's body from the panopticon of the public gaze. (In western feminist theory, there is a theory that women (in particular) are the 'objects' of an all-pervasive gaze, so veiling practices can be seen as a way of preventing the gaze and returning power to the veiled).
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
I view the idea of having the veil provide a "portable private space"as another attempt to find a rationalization for one more element
of Islamic sexism and oppression.
If Islam wants to provide a "portable private space" then it needs
only to ALLOW for a veil, not to MANDATE one. The issue, if one
takes such a rationalization seriously, is why should Islam
force the woman to have a "portable private space" if she does not
want one.
And why should not the men also be forced to have this "portable
private space"
The exact same argument applies to "the gaze". It does not allow
the woman to choose if she wants to subject herself to "the gaze",
but rather it mandates that she must feel shame at having any
part of her body seen by the public.
The veil, like many other Islamic injunctions against women, is only
a sign of the possession of women by men in Islamic society. It
shows that the man so completely owns every element of the
woman's sexuality that she cannot even allow anyone to view her
face without the permission of her husband.
A couple of Hadith will serve to show the contempt that the
prophet carried for women.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 2, Book 24, Number 541
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri
." Then he went towards the women and said. "O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women)." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for it?" He replied, "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you..
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
If you are interested in learning more, you may wish to read On Veiling, which addresses the larger context of veiling, including the rules that are required of men. For an Islamic perspective on the hadith that you cited, try Are Women Deficient in Intelligence and Religion? (continues here).Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
Thank You. The two links that you have given me are a clearexample of the scramble, in the Islamic world, that is currently
under way in the effort to explain away all of the things which
westerners would obviously find offensive. Like most such
explanations, the flaws are all too apparent.
In the article "On Veiling" she admits that it is a commandment
of god. To a non Muslim this is one of the many factors which
makes us believe that the god of Islam is an invented creation
of Mohammed's. It is inconceivable that God would create us
naked only to then declare that there is shame in the vision of
his own creation. It is inconceivable that God would allow man
to roam the earth for thousands of years without shame only to
declare that what was acceptable for those thousands of years had
suddenly become offensive to him. It makes much more sense that
Mohammed's personal jealousy and protection of his own property
caused him to add such verses, just as he added the verses to
allow himself more wives than anyone else.
The explanation for "Are Women deficient in intelligence and
religion" breaks down very quickly. The explanation is that
women are given less responsibility in intelligence and religion.
Even on it's own this explanation seems awkward and contrived.
But if you accept the idea that women are simply less burdened
than men in these areas, then that contradicts the result of
these things which is that women are the majority of the
inhabitants of hell and that their testimony is worth half that
of a man. I am also suspicious of people who reinterpret the
ancient Arabic to let themselves off the hook. I have talked
with other Arabic speakers who have stated that such
retranslations were often false.
Along with this, there are numerous other Hadith which support
the meaning of the Hadith just as I have given them based upon
Mohammed's general attitude to women. Here are some of them:
---Frequently parallels are drawn between women and animals.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him."
Abu Dawud
Book 11, Number 2155:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If one of you marries a woman or buys a slave, he should say: "O Allah, I ask Thee for the good in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her; I take refuge in Thee from the evil in her, and in the disposition Thou hast given her." When he buys a camel, he should take hold of the top of its hump and say the same kind of thing.
---Women are irredeemably corrupt.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:
Narrated Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.'
Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3467:
Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported: Woman has been created from a rib and will in no way be straightened for you; so if you wish to benefit by her, benefit by her while crookedness remains in her. And if you attempt to straighten her, you will break her, and breaking her is divorcing her.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:
Narrated Usama bin Zaid:
The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."
---Women are NOT to be married for their love, character or
---companionship.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 27:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "A woman is married for four things, i.e., her wealth, her family status, her beauty and her religion. So you should marry the religious woman (otherwise) you will be a losers.
---Women are sexual toys.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?'
---Women are spiritually corrupted.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 126:
Narrated Imran:
The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women."
---The very considerate Mohammed tells the Muslim men that if
---they beat their women like they do their slaves, then give them a break
---on the sex.
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 132:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a:
The Prophet said, "None of you should flog his wife as he flogs a slave and then have sexual intercourse with her in the last part of the day."
---If a woman participates in Jihad, she will not receive a share of the
---booty like a man. She may get some token prize.
Sahih Muslim
Book 019, Number 4458:
It has been narrated on the authority of Yazid b. Hurmuz who said: Najda b. 'Amir al-Haruri wrote to Ibn Abbas asking him about the slave and the woman as to whether they would get a share from the booty (it they participated in Jihad) ; about the killing of (enemy) children (in war) ; about the orphan as to when his orphanhood comes to an end; about kinsmen (of the Holy Prophet) as to who they are. He said to Yazid: Write to him. (If he were not likely to fall into folly, I would not have written to him.) Write: You have written asking about the woman and the slave whether they would get a share of the booty if they participated in Jihad. (You should know that) there is nothing of the sort for them except that they will be given a prize.
---Saying the correct invocation before sex can protect baby boys from
---Satan, but not baby girls.
Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3361:
Ibn" Abbas (Allah be pleased with thern) reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: If anyone amongst you intends to go to his wife he should say: In the name of Allah,0 Allah protect us against Satan and keep away the Satan from the one that you have bestowed upon us, and if He has ordained a male child for them, Satan will never be able to do any harm to him.
---Allah and the angels always seem to take the side of the men.
Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3366:
Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: When a woman spends the night away from the bed of her husband, the angels curse her until morning. This hadith has been narrated through the same chain of transmitters (with a slight variation):" He said: Until she comes back."
---One of the many pieces of evidence sanctifying the rape of slave girls.
Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3383:
Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported that a man came to Allah's
Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: I have a slave-girl who is our servant and she carries water for us and I have intercourse with her, but I do not want her to conceive. He said: Practise 'azl, if you so like, but what is decreed for her will come to her. The person stayed back (for some time) and then came and said: The girl has become pregnant, whereupon he said: I told you what was decreed for her would come to her.
---Evidence that slave girls could be raped even if they were married.
Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3432:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end).
---Aisha notices that Mohammed is using Allah for his own satisfaction
Sahih Muslim
Book 008, Number 3453:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: I felt jealous of the women
who offered themselves to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Then when Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, revealed this:" You may defer any one of them you wish, and take to yourself any you wish; and if you desire any you have set aside (no sin is chargeable to you)" (xxxiii.51), I ('A'isha.) said: It seems to me that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desire.
---A man can beat his wife for any reason he likes.
Abu Dawud
Book 11, Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
---Mohammed wanted to expand Islam and he wanted to use women to do it.
Abu Dawud
Book 11, Number 2045:
Narrated Ma'qil ibn Yasar:
A man came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: I have found a woman of rank and beauty, but she does not give birth to children. Should I marry her? He said: No. He came again to him, but he prohibited him. He came to him third time, and he (the Prophet) said: Marry women who are loving and very prolific, for I shall outnumber the peoples by you.
I will leave out the offending verses from the Quran, as I'm
sure that you know them.
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
I'm curious what you think of the position of women in other religious texts, such as those of Judaism and Christianity. Do you think their position is much superior to that in Islam, or do you think that all religions are equally bad?While you're looking for offensive verses in the Quran, you might also take a look at these.
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
That is an interesting question. I have no particular religiousaffiliation, so I'm not really interested in defending any particular
one. I think that most religions have fallen short in their
treatement of women, and some have been outright crude and
sexist. The Buddha was probably the most humanistic of all of the
founders of a religion, and even he was reluctant to allow women
to become monks - although he eventually did so. But of course
most ancient societies, regardless of their religious practices,
treated women very poorly. One of the problems with religions,
when they move away from spritiual issues and get into daily living
issues, is that they often freeze social evolution to the practices
which were common and accepted in that particular place and in
that particular time.
Probably the most egalitarian people in the spiritual world are
the mystics. You will never see a true mystic denigrate women
and there are many women mystics who are themselves highly
regarded. But then I'm getting off the subject.
I looked at your link, and if I may summarize, it says that both
men and women can go to heaven; both men and women will be
punished for doing wrong; both men and women will be rewarded
for doing good. Let me give you an analogy to this. Both a general
and a private may go to war together. Each of them can be killed
by a single bullet. Each of them may earn a silver star or a medal
of honor for their bravery. But they are still not equals.
The Quran makes a clear statement of the inequality of women in
4.34 when it says:
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
I also have the translations of Daewood and Arberry and they say
the same thing.
Now, since you have given me your link to your Quranic verses
I will give you some more which indicate inequality.
[2.282] O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; .
[4:3] If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
[4:11] God (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by God; and God is All-knowing, Al- wise.
[4:15] If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way.
[66.5] Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.
---While men are given permission to rape their slave girls, women
---have no permission to have sex with their slaves.
[70:29] And those who guard their chastity,
[70:30] Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
I am trying to understand what your point is in coming here and telling me that you think my religion is false and bad. Do you hope to convince me to leave it and become an atheist? Do you feel that I am misrepresenting Islam at my site and therefore you need to "reveal the truth"? Do you also go to the sites of Jews and Christians and post "exposes" of how false and bad their religion is, or are you just singling out me?If I thought that you would listen, I would take the time to respond to you point by point, but so far you have shown little interest in exploring viewpoints other than your own or in looking to find ways to interpret Islam in a positive light. Quite frankly, I doubt that even if I refuted every single one of your points, you would change your mind.
Again, what is your point in this? Why does it matter to you what I believe? How is it harming you or anyone else?
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
-- Do you hope to convince me to leave it and become an atheist?I would hope that everyone would leave Islam and become
something else, anything else. I can only see that the effects of
Islam on the world are mostly negative. And this is both for
Muslims and non Muslims. If people do choose a religion I would
hope that they choose one in which at least a little spirituality
exists. In Islam the only spirituality is found in Sufism, and that
is an artificial injection which goes against the basic teachings.
---Do you feel that I am misrepresenting Islam at my site and therefore you need to "reveal the truth"?
There is no question that you are misrepresenting Islam. For
example, the last link which you gave me that was designed to
show the equality of men and women in Islam consipicously left
out all of the verses which would show the opposite. I have also
seen you make the case for the "peacefulness" of Islam while
leaving out the mountain of Quranic, Ahadith and real world
evidence which shows otherwise.
---Do you also go to the sites of Jews and Christians and post "exposes" of how false and bad their religion is, or are you just singling out me?
Both the Jewish and the Christian religion have gone through the
crucible of scientific, political and moral scrutiny in the western
world. Islam has not undergone this kind of intense investigation.
For the majority of it's existence Islam has protected itself behind
a cloak of blasphemy laws. It has killed apostates and imprisoned
disenters. It cannot do this in much of the west and so it has
taken the new approach of trying to reinterpret itself for western
audiences. This means that Muslims write books and host web
sites where they tell non Muslims what they think they want to
hear. And since non Muslims know so little about Islam, they will
simply accept what they hear from a supposedly knowledgable
Muslim source.
---If I thought that you would listen, I would take the time to respond to you point by point, but so far you have shown little interest in exploring viewpoints other than your own or in looking to find ways to interpret Islam in a positive light.
I have read the links that you gave me. And I think that you have
taken the approach that people are only listening to you if they
agree with you. Also, I do not think we should be interpreting
Islam in a positive or any other kind of light. We should determine
the intent as clearly as possible and then judge if we think that
it is positive or negative.
---Quite frankly, I doubt that even if I refuted every single one of your points, you would change your mind.
I could say the same about your mindset; but at least I am willing
to engage in the discussion. Are you sure that in your heart you
are not affraid that such a discussion could show the people on
your blog things you did not want them to know? Or do you fear
your own confidence in your faith? I know that such a lack of
confidence manifests itself in anger at the person who is the
messenger for such information, and I can sense that there is a
little anger building in you.
---Again, what is your point in this? Why does it matter to you what I believe? How is it harming you or anyone else?
While I believe that in your case you are trying to live Islam as you
represent it, namely as a religion of peace, I don't believe that you
give a fair representation in terms of what Islam actually teaches.
And if history has taught us anything it is that following any
ideaology that does not live in the light of truth will always be
harmful to mankind.
It's your blog. If you only want to represtent one side of your
religion you are free to do so. You can block my posts. You can
practise your own form of blasphemy control. In fact,
you don't have to do that. Ask me to leave and I will. But in that
case I don't see how you can have a clear consience and call
your blog "fair and balanced".
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
Well, then, it seems you've got me all figured out. You're not the first person to come here and tell me Islam is something evil and I'm a liar because I try to present it as something good. And if I take exception to people showing up out of nowhere to attack my character, I must be trying to suppress the truth.So be it. You win. You have exposed the truth about me and shown the world how bad I am. Now, I would appreciate it if you would take your anti-Islam rhetoric somewhere else. There are many places on the web where you will find a welcoming audience for it and you can share with them how you vanquished me and once again proved how closed-minded all those awful Muslims are.
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
---Well, then, it seems you've got me all figured out.What I did have figured out, even before my first post, was that
you would find a way to turn it from a discussion about Islam
into a personal confrontation so that you could have an excuse
to ask me to leave. Good enough. I'm gone!
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
If Muslimahs are so routinely and systematically "oppressed" by Islam, why do so many of them choose to take the veil?Some claim Islam is "misogynistic" ... and that the ubiquitous, media-driven American exploitation of human sexuality for profit is "egalitarian." But which of the two world views most truly and emphatically rejects the public, sexual objectification of women?
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
I am a college student at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I am currently enrolled in a course that studies gender and modern Islamic society. As part of the course I am supposed to find reputable Islamic feminist websites. I have done some searches through google but I haven't found too much. Would anyone here be willing to steer me in the right direction? It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
The three major Muslim feminist organizations in America are Muslim Women's League, Karamah, and Kamilat.If you're also looking for articles, I recommend Gender Equity in Islam, Ideals and Role Models for Women in Islam, On the Position of Women in Islam and Islamic Society, Status of Women in Islam, and Women in a Quranic Society. You can find additional articles about women in Islam at Islam The Modern Religion, the Muslim Women's Homepage, Muslim Women and Women's Rights, and Muslim Women and Their Islam.
Hope this helps!
Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
Woops, sorry for pinging your trackback so many times when I edited my entry - I am one of those lazy editors that reads my mistakes *after* I've posted.Subject: Re: resources on Muslim feminism
Yeah, I tend to do the same. Jonathan Edelstein still holds the record for the most pings to a single entry, though he has the excuse that he was updating his entry with new information. I stopped counting after about ten.The problem is that my server is slow getting back to your server with the acknowledgment that it received the ping. Your server thinks that the ping was not received, so it stores it to try again the next time you save the entry.