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Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
Yes, I do believe that.I believe that each and every human being is born with an innate human nature that recognizes goodness and seeks it out. I also believe that we have so many different nations, societies, races, religions, etc so that we can learn from each other. Where one group is weak, another is strong. Where one group knows a little, another knows a lot. Each brings something that is unique and can benefit humanity as a whole.
Sometimes a culture or a society can get stuck in a mode where it does more harm than good, but we can reach beyond that to the goodness that is in each individual member of the culture or society and by doing so, we can find a way to keep what is good and leave behind what is bad in the culture or society.
Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
When we hear this kind of question, I think we often take as a default that we're talking about good values. And those I certainly think are shared across cultures and appearances. I was an anthropology major, and am pretty sure I never learned about any cultures, say, that said murder is dandy, or that people should beat up babies. Some of this makes sense, because we often forget that morality, whether you think it comes from a Supreme Being or not, is also very smart. It makes society better, safer, happier, you name it.But like I said, we often take the "good" as the default of what we mean by values. But there is the other side of it, which is the human capacity for cruelty, for fearing the other. Sadly, we share that, too. And all too often it's based on that appearance thing. So yes, we do share values. Good and bad. I guess the key is to emphasize the first (and live up to those values) and work to overcome the second.
Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
I was going to say something similar, but Gregory beat me to it.Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
As Gregory mentioned there are generally some qualities which humans share regardless of their differences ie. murder or child abuse. I guess it would be great if communitys could work together to achieve common goals like lower crime/abuse and drug abuse.Things that would benefit the entire community despite individual differencesSubject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
Yes I do believe that. Every parent wants the best for their child no matter their culture, race, religion or economic background. Just like everyone wants to be able to live their life without worry or fear. It is these basic principles that unite people of different appearances. We all want to live.Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
Although we can listen to non-Muslim people, we should teach them about the virtues of Islam. After all, is that not what Mohammed did??? While we are not forcibly converting people to Islam, they should be able to understand our religion and see how much freedom and tolerance we have in Islam. People have a view of us Arabs as being terrorists who oppress their women. We should teach people that this is not so. Soo in conclusion, it si vital that we do mix with non-Muslim peoples fro greater understanding between our cultures.Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
There's a common core human values that are based in physical and psychological requirements. Where we differ is the means by which we feel we can achieve them, which decision is generally shaped by our acculturation.Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
I believe this, but I'm not sure that everyone does.I spent four months in India and there were times when I wondered if people thought that I was human at all. When I was in Fort Cochin I was walking back to my room one evening and blew out a flip-flop. I still had quite a distance to go, and when a young man who worked in one of the restaurants came along and very kindly offered me a ride on the back of his bicycle, I accepted. So we set off,and as I'm tall I had to stick my legs out to the side a bit so they wouldn't drag on the ground. Along came another young man driving an auto-rickshaw. Now, before I went to India I had a dream where I saw my right foot all twisted and badly damaged. When I saw the auto-rickshaw coming I flashed on that dream. As he passed us, I pulled my leg back as close to the bike as I could. Sure enough, he veered all the way over and tried to hit my foot. In fact he did brush it, and scraped the polish off several toenails, but I wasn't hurt. Then he turned around and came back, presumably for another try. We stopped the bike, and he and my young acquaintance got into a shouting match. Finally, the auto-rickshaw driver left. It seems that both young men were Muslims, and the one who tried to hurt me didn't think the kid on the bike should have given me a ride. How this justified his trying to hurt me, I don't know. I would be interested in comments from our hostess or anyone else.Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
Kathy, I am astonished that you think this person's behavior had something to do with his being a Muslim. I hope you will take some time to think this through. Muslims are people just like anybody else. Not everybody who is a Christian or Jew always lives up to their religion. Sometimes they even act contrary to its teachings. Muslims are the same. We are human beings just like anybody else.I am very sorry that you have chosen to take this incident as a commentary on an entire religion and all of its adherents. I am very sorry that your mind is so closed.
No, Islam doesn't teach people to do that. I'm also very sorry that you expect me, a total stranger, to have to say this.
Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
I thought, and still think that his actions had very much to do with his being Muslim because that's what HE SAID. Go back and read my post again. He told the kid on the bike (who translated the gist of their conversation for me after Mr. Auto-Rickshaw left,) that he was wrong to have given me a ride and thats why he tried to hit us. I look very different from people there. Isn't this what this dialog is about? Am I wrong to think that this Muslim man thinks that someone of my appearance does not share basic values? What I am saying is that discrimination can work both ways. You will notice that I also said the kid on the bike was Muslim, too. Not only did he stop to give me a ride but he argued with Auto-Rickshaw about what he had done. Of course not all Muslims condone this kind of prejudice and aggression. Very few, I'm sure. But those few can cause a lot of problems, just as the minority of racist/xenophobic/whatever/ Christians and Jews and so on do. But what would you, as a Muslim, say to him? And, what do you think his justification in Islam could have been? He surely thought he had some justification. But all I could get out of my friend on the bike was "He thought it was wrong." I expected an intelligent answer from you, as you profess to be well versed in the tenets of your religion. And by the way, I wouldn't be here if I were closeminded. And the fact that we have never met face-to-face; what does that have to do with it? Have you met every single person here? I thought this was a dialog for everyone.Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
I just wanna say to Kathy, I am sorry this happened to, many times people use religion as a justification but they have inner motives, you cannot be naive enough to believe the rick shaw guy, he was probably jealous that he could not give you a ride, but even if he thought it was wrong for that man to give you a ride on his bicycle, a good Muslim would have offered his rick shaw instead of trying to hurt you. The thing is that there are many ignorant Muslims that only know about a few things about Islam passed on to them by their ancestors but the essence of Islam is not learned. So yes the person could be prejudice, but Islam in no way justifies that prejudice, it is the man's own whims and desires that make him prejudice and he can use any ideology to justify this.Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
Thank you for the kind words, Sameold Human. I suppose it is remotely possible that the rickshaw guy was envious, but let me give you a little background. Yes, I'm tall, blond and pale because my ancestors came from the British Isles and Germany. I also have one many times greatgrandmother who was Creek Indian; my family has been in America a long time. But all I have from her is high cheekbones. The thing is, I am not a college-aged babe. I was, at the time, 39 years of age and on the porky side. I think I looked more ridiculous than enticing on the back of that bicycle. Both my friend and auto rickshaw guy were maybe 20 or 22. The vibe I got was not sexual at all. Bicycle guy was a nice kid trying to help out someone he'd met in his restaurant and rickshaw guy was...I'm not sure what. You are no doubt right that the main thing he was was uneducated. If, as you said, many Muslims don't know their religion that well, and are then at the mercy of their all-too-human whims and prejudices, then how can justice exist in countries where Sharia is in place? How can people live according to the law when they don't know the law? And what if these same people are the ones entrusted with upholding the law? Even if they only have authority over their own relatives the potential for injustice is high. This is the thing that nobody talks about: the gap between what should be and what IS. Thoughts?And what do you think about that warning dream?
Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
Kathy, I am very sorry that you have been hurt by someone. But your attitude continues to baffle and sadden me. There are bad people everywhere who do bad, wrong things, yet Muslims are the only one whose religion you blame for it?Sure, I can quote you from the Quran and other texts many verses that say not to harm others, but then (as you've done above) you'll demand that I explain why Muslims don't live up to those rules.
I can't do that, Kathy. You are putting me in an impossible position. I am just an ordinary person here in America. I have no control over the actions of anyone but myself. The most I can do, the most I can ever do, is speak up for what I believe to be the truth and hope that others will listen.
You also sound upset thinking that you are being pushed out from this dialogue. You must have encountered hundreds or thousands of Muslims on your trip. All but this one that you remember acted well to you. But do you count that? No, you decide on the basis of this one person that Muslims do not share common values with you. That is simply astonishing.
And again, it puts me and other Muslims in an impossible position. No matter how good we are, no matter what we do, if one Muslim anywhere screws up, our work is forgotten and that one bad Muslim becomes the exemplar of our religion.
I set some ground rules for this discussion. The most basic is that everybody should be treated with respect. You come here and say that you don't think Muslims share basic human values with you even though you know that I and others here are Muslims. And you wonder why people are upset at you.
Your insistence that the Muslims here condemn this man's actions or be considered somehow guilty of them is also taking over the discussion thread. Again, that is contrary to the ground rules that I set out, because it prevents others from feeling that they can share.
Kathy, you are free to comment on any other entry in my blog that has comments open - although I'll warn you in advance that you seem to want what no one can give you - but I must ask you to leave the dialog thread alone unless you are willing to abide by the rules.
Subject: Re: Imagine the America you want to live in #3
Al-Munaqabah - I think you were a little rough there on Kathy. She is obviously looking for a greater understanding of the man's reasons for trying to hurt her. You may believe that the man's religion had nothing to do with it but she, at present, has difficulty understanding that. I think these are the people you should be trying to reason with and include but instead you have abruptly terminated the conversation at the first sign of being threatened by her thoughts and language. At no stage did Kathy say that Muslims do not share the same basic human values as her. Her comments on Sharia Law were valid I thought and opened up a quite an interesting argument. We're all here to learn.