veiled4allah: face veils and the law veiled4allah: face veils and the lawAll comments are copyright their authors
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Frst, r y prsn wh thnks fr hrslf r r y shp lwys, cntnlly, dfrrng thrty t dsty ld schlrs wh lv n th pst?
Ths s 2003. W qstn thngs. W thnk. Ppl hv ql, dffrnt, nd ppsng vwpnts. Thr s n n cntrl thrty, n nfllbl src f Wsdm whr hmn bngs r cncrnd. nd pls, "schlrs" r hmn bngs. nd fr tht mttr, bk - whthr ts th bbl, zhr r krn - s jst bk. Wrttn by ppl. Lf s nt Hrry Pttr mv, fll f sprsttn nd mgc.
Wht 'm syng s: wk p. Thnk fr YRSLF. Y'r bvsly qt ntllgnt; wht s srprsng s yr cntnl, rptd, prdctbl dfrrng t thr ppl nd dsty ld txts. f y MST dpt th cnstrnts f yr rlgn, chck t ts mystcl cr, sfsm, nd th cncpt f "tm nd plc". Tchngs chng ccrdng t cltrlly rltv cndtns. Ths s, s sd, 2003.
I would be happy to discuss with you my reasons for choosing to follow religious authority, but I really don't see any point to it if you consider that following religious (or any other) authority is an invalid choice.
However, the question is whether a driving license is necessarily a photo ID or not. A number of states allow people to get driver licenses without a photo. These provisions have been there for quite some time. One can be for or against these provisions, but not just to spite Muslims.
OTOH why should there be a photoless license? Should we have photoless passports as well? What about company or school IDs?
What I'm saying is: wake up. Think for YOURSELF. You're obviously quite intelligent; what is surprising is your continual, repeated, predictable deferring to other people and dusty old texts. If you MUST adopt the constraints of your religion, check out its mystical core, sufism, and the concept of "time and place". Teachings change according to culturally relative conditions. This is, as I said, 2003.
I can't speak for al-M, but do consider that perhaps in her choice to "defer" to scholars she determines to be right, al-M IS thinking for herself. The two are not mutually exclusive. The issue is, al-M said, "Her ability to drive doesn't depend on her having a photo ID." This has implications for more than just women who veil and, might, in turn, make the rest of us question our assumptions re: state-issued photo IDs, even (especially) in 2003.note: J added to the above comment author's name
Dsty bk by mn ? Y pr sd gnrms, f nly y knw wht y wr tlkng bt. Snc y dg sfsm s ndrstd by yr LSD spnsrd trp, hrs ds rlty, sf wmn cvr thmslvs t. Shm n y fr bng n gnrnt mrn.
nd Plcky, tht ws n xcllnt pnt y md bt th Sds.
They are Saudi as far as I know...are they radical?
>rgnlly pstd by l-Mnqbh -
'm crs why y dn't blv tht ftr prsn nggs n crtcl thnkng nd xmntn f th sss sh mght chs t bd by rl st t n "dsty ld txt" bcs sh thnks t's rght. t snds s thgh y xpct "crtcl thnkng" t lwys ld t n cnclsn, t rjct thrty. Tht's s blnd s lwys byng thrty. s smthng nt tr r nt vld jst bcs smn hs lrdy sd t? Why shld prsn nt b bl t fllw rls st by thrs tht sh's dcdd r rght?
wld b hppy t dscss wth y my rsns fr chsng t fllw rlgs thrty, bt rlly dn't s ny pnt t t f y cnsdr tht fllwng rlgs (r ny thr) thrty s n nvld chc.
K, nw hv y hrd f ths thng clld "th clsh f cvlstns"? Wht d y thnk t cnssts f? Lt m tll y. Sclgst Krl Pppr dffrnttd btwn 2 knds f scty: pn, nd clsd. Th frst ncrgs dbt, crtcsm, nd plrlty f vws. Th scnd s bst sn n thcrtc nd pltclly ttltrn scts whr nly N wy f ntrprtng th wrld s ccptbl. Rlgns - spclly slm - r pr-mnntly CLSD. Thr's n dbt, n qstnng, n cnsdrtn f ltrntv vws. Tht's why xtrmsts wr s pssd t Slmn Rshd. Nw, t ws xtrm ('m sr y'd gr - r t lst hp y wll), bt th tttd s stll wdsprd. Wht s wrng wth qstnng dsty ld bk? Nthng - ts ntllgnt t qstn. slm cn't cp wth tht s ts cs f "rght, w'll kll y!"
Th Wst s chrctrsd by vbrnt ntllctl lf fll f dffrnt knds f phlsphy, scnc, rsrch tc tc. slm nly ccpts n Rdng Lst - th krn nd ssctd wrks. Tht s CLSD.
S ts nt bt kn jrk rjctn f thrty - y dflctd my rgnl pnt tht ts bt thnkng fr yrslf, rthr thn cnfnng yrslf, gn nd gn nd gn, t th sm lmtd spctrm f ds.
Lk sd, wk p. Ths s 2003. Ths s nt bg thng t ndrstnd.
bergson - As long as you presume that anybody who chooses to follow Islamic rules must not be engaging in critical thought, there is very little for us to discuss here. You apparently want me to come to a certain conclusion and if I don't, you don't accept what I have to say. I find it extremely presumptuous of you to come to my blog and tell me how you think I should practice my religion and what I should believe.
Everybody else - Inshallah, I'll respond to the rest of the comments later. I have to go to class now. Thanks to everybody who shared their feedback. More later...
cn s ths wll g nwhr s hr r fw mr pnts bfr g. Frst, th Wst/S s nt n slmc r krnc cltr. Y hv n rght t qstn ts rls, bcs thy d nt ft slm. Scnd, Wstrn cltr trs vry hrd t ccmmdt slm - pryr rms t rprts, slmc schls, msqs tc. Nw, f g t n mslm cntry MY lfstyl s nt rspctd (lbrl, hmnst, Wstrn). f drd t nfrng th slmc lws, th rtrbtn wld b svr. Qstn: whch s th mr dlt, sphstctd nd mrlly sprr cltr - th n tht trs t ccmmdt th thr, r th n tht sys 'n wy. Y hv t ft n wth r cstms - r ls'.
ts bvs th cnvrstns hr r vry sprfcl nd nt rlly cncrnd wth th mr chllngng sss. sspct tht slm wll cntn t hv bd rpttn bcs t cntnlly rfss t cm nt th 21st cntry nd cnsdr TSLF bfr ttckng th Wst ll th tm.
>>
fnd t xtrmmly prsmpts tht y thnk ts ccptbl t qstn S lw, bcs t dsn't ft yr cstms. Thr s nthng 'prsmpts' bt prsntng y wth chllngng sss: thts wht pn dmcrtc dbt s.
Thnk bt t.
But in any case, isn't it my right to propose and to advocate for changes in existing laws that I think are right? I thought that's what democracy was about. If nobody agrees with me then my proposed changes won't be enacted. But I can still speak up and seek to convince people. I paid for this webspace and spent the time and effort to set up this website for the purpose of doing so. I am not intruding on anybody else's space by this, nor forcing them to read me if they don't want to. I'm sorry that you find that so offensive.
I would like to invite you before you leave to read my archives. The veiled4allah page has a list in the left sidebar of some of my posts, the archives list all of them. I also have a search function so you can look for a specific topic. Read what I have to say. I've posted before on what I think Islamic governments should and should not do. You might be surprised at what I have to say.
Subject: Haya (modesty)
I understand that Allah is Most Merciful and we are only accountable for those things which we have some control over. And if it is unavoidable to have a license without the niqab then so be it, alhumdullilah. But it is SO embarrassing – humiliating, really.Narrated by Abu Huraira: The Prophet, sallalahu allayhe wa salam, said: “Faith (Belief) consists of more than sixty branches (i.e. parts). And Haya (modesty) is a part of faith.”
[Bukhari 008, Vol 1, Book 2]
And
Narrated by ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar: The Prophet, sallalahu allayhe wa salam passed by a man who was admonishing his brother regarding Haya and was saying, “You are very shy, and I am afraid that might harm you.” On that, Allah’s Apostle said, “Leave him, for Haya is (a part) of Faith.”
[Bukhari Vol. 8, Book 73. Hadeeth 139]
After all, one of the Muslim woman’s best examples had the following conversation:
Once Ali ibn abi Talib (ra) asked his wife, Fatimah bint Muhammad (ra), "What is the thing most beloved to a believing woman?" Fatimah replied, "Not to see or be seen by strange men."
What more can be said then this?
The rest of this post can be found at A Portrait of the Artist as a Muslim Woman
First, so that everybody is clear on this, every photo ID card that I have shows my face (license, student ID, passport, etc). As I tried to make clear in the original blog entry, I think it's stupid to wear a face veil for a photo ID. I have no problem with showing my face on an ID card or with uncovering my face so that I can be checked against my ID card. I even said that if Freeman wants a paper driver's license she should get a separate photo ID with her face unveiled that she can use for identification purposes.
I think that the basic purpose of a driver's license is to show that a person is qualified to operate a motor vehicle. Separate ID cards are available from the state for those who don't have a driver's license for whatever reason but who need to be able to show ID. I think that this arrangement best serves the purposes that each card was intended for. That is why I advocate for it.
One of the articles that I linked to was about driver's license integrity. It talks about ensuring that the only driver's licenses that are issued are those that have been issued by the proper authority to people who have met the qualifications, and that the person who is carrying it is the person who is authorized to have it. A photograph is one way to ensure this but we can look at whether it is the only way and whether it is the best way.
I have a variety of government-issued papers and cards including a birth certificate, a social security card, and a voter registration card. I also have a passport. Only the passport has a photo on it. The integrity issue comes up for each of these. When I go to vote, how do they know that I'm the same person who was issued the voter registration card? Or isn't voting important enough to require that check?
We can look at each type of government-issued paper or authorization. How important is it to verify that the person who bears it is the same as the person who was issued it? Some papers may be important enough to require it. Some may not. Would the purposes of verification be served if the person was required to produce a separate photo ID in the same name? Why not have a single photo ID that can be shown with a variety of different papers, authorizations, and licenses? The conditions for obtaining this photo ID card could be very stringent and the conditions of the other cards more or less so depending on the importance of what they authorize people to do.
Just to make things clear again, I have no problem with abiding by the current system. I do however wish to explore alternatives and various arguments that can be made for these alternatives. I am not against photo IDs. I do not think that photo IDs are some sort of spite against Muslims. I am raising the question of whether a license to operate a motor vehicle needs to have a photograph on it so that a person who won't put a photo on it should be denied the right to drive, and I am raising the question of whether allowing a paper license with a separate photo ID would be an adequate solution.
Bin Gregory - No, Shaykh Munajjid was not discussing driver's licenses. He was quoting from a text written in the 1200s, when driver's licenses were unknown. Unveiling to verify identity is recognized as a legitimate reason and that was the point I wanted to make.
Salma - I have not read any of the works by either scholar but from what I have read, they are considered radical opponents of the Saudi regime. They have been criticized by prominent Saudi scholars because of their inciting rebellion and twisting the teachings of Islam. I hope this helps.
rpt:
cn s ths wll g nwhr s hr r fw mr pnts bfr g. Frst, th Wst/S s nt n slmc r krnc cltr. Y hv n rght t qstn ts rls, bcs thy d nt ft slm. Scnd, Wstrn cltr trs vry hrd t ccmmdt slm - pryr rms t rprts, slmc schls, msqs tc. Nw, f g t n mslm cntry MY lfstyl s nt rspctd (lbrl, hmnst, Wstrn). f drd t nfrng th slmc lws, th rtrbtn wld b svr. Qstn: whch s th mr dlt, sphstctd nd mrlly sprr cltr - th n tht trs t ccmmdt th thr, r th n tht sys 'n wy. Y hv t ft n wth r cstms - r ls'.
ts bvs th cnvrstns hr r vry sprfcl nd nt rlly cncrnd wth th mr chllngng sss. sspct tht slm wll cntn t hv bd rpttn bcs t cntnlly rfss t cm nt th 21st cntry nd cnsdr TSLF bfr ttckng th Wst ll th tm.
rlly dn't hv th tm t rd yr psts. m rssrd by wht y sy. Hwvr, hv dntfd mprtnt sss hr, vn f thy d nt cncrn y prsnlly. S bv, nd ths:
fnd t xtrmmly prsmpts tht y thnk ts ccptbl t qstn S lw, bcs t dsn't ft yr cstms.
Y mght nt b dng tht bt sm ppl r, whch s why ths pthtc stry s n th nws.
You might like Aziz Poonawalla's take on the issue. I think Freeman is stupid but I try to look at all the different angles. Aziz doesn't mince words in what he thinks of Freeman.
Regarding voting, a number of countries do require a photo ID to vote.
>rgnlly pstd by Trckr -
srsly dbt ths dscssn wld b tkng plc f trdtnl ld Jwsh ldy, y knw th typ wh wrs cvrs hrslf prtlly, ws nvlvd.
Brgsn, y'r n xtrmst rght wngr wh hs bn t pck wth slm. Qt prtndng ths s bt lws nd cltr, rthr thn smpl cs f bltnt bgtry.
h, th ld "Th Jws r Gttng wy Wth t" rgmnt. Ys, mst nflmmtry cnsdrng crrnt vnts n srl. n fct pps ll rlgs nnsns f ll nd vry knd. ts jst tht slm s mkng th nws t th mmnt, dmnstrtng th prblms wth rlgn - ntlrnt bgtry, nt ntrstd n th rst f th wrld tc. Cllng m bgt s xtrmly rnc! Lbllng m rght wng s ntllctlly cnvnnt (t lwys svs prpr thnkng), bt lghbl.
ssrtng tht hv bn t pck tc. s th nly crrct rmrk y mk. Ys, d, nd tht s my rght. Why? Bcs ths s nt scrsnct sbjct. Srry, bt hv frdm f thght nd frdm f spch, nd cn s th ngr nd dvsns tht slm crts. thnk fr myslf. Ths nws stry hr nnys m. Th hypcrsy nnys m, whn mslm cntrs dmnd dhrnc t thr rls, whn mslms hr nsst tht thy r rcgnsd tc. Y cn't hv t bth wys.
cld g n bt rlly t gts trsm. Svrl tms hr 'v rfrrd t th bd rpttn slm hs, s my fnl rmrk s ths: gt md t m f y lk. rlly dn't cr. Wht mttrs s wht s hppnng n th wrld, nd gttng md t m dsn't chng tht. nd t s, mr crtclly, th knd f ss tht shld b ccpyng y rthr thn prsnlsd lttl rnts.
Srry my frnd, y'r pckng n th wrng prsn.
Zack, you're correct about the current state of things. I am asking whether this is the best way or whether another way of doing things such as having a separate photo ID might be better. I am interested to hear peoples' responses on this point.
two: I wonder which airports have praying place for the Muslims?
thirdly, which muslim country did you go to rejected you from practicing what you belief i.e humanist, western...?
Also, the question then comes back to the fact that we are sort of requiring veiled women to get a photo ID without the veil. Would they think of it as the same thing? Where would they feel comfortable showing the photo ID?
PS. If I change my email and URL in the comments here, would that mean loss of my coveted stars?
Now back to the topic at hand. I'm curious if anybody here has lived as an adult (i.e., over 18) without a driver's license. I have. I got a state-issued photo ID card and produced it whenever anybody asked for photo ID even if they phrased it "can I see your driver's license?" because a photo ID was what they wanted. And there were never any problems with this. I would say that a lot of people never even noticed that it wasn't actually a driver's license because the Washington ID cards look almost identical to driver's licenses. It says "not a driver's license" along the top and I think a couple other things are different but you have to look carefully. If someone is just checking the picture or even looking for date of birth or the ID number, they might not even notice. The only thing I couldn't do with the state-issued ID card is drive. That's the one and only time that you absolutely must have a driver's license and not simply a photo ID card. And that's my point.
Also, when I got my instruction permit, I got a non-photo permit because I already had the photo ID card. I didn't even request the non-photo permit from the Department of Licensing. I paid my fee, they asked for ID to verify my application, I showed them my state-issued ID card and they gave me the non-photo permit. I was rather surprised, myself, since I went prepared to have my photo taken. Also, the driving school that I went to never asked me to show photo ID, what they cared about was that I had the instruction permit that authorized me to get behind the wheel of their car. I showed them that and they didn't ask for more.
Most people get their driver's license before they need a photo ID card for anything so they don't think about photo ID cards. But I was a bit of a late bloomer in this regard and I assure everybody, you can get by just fine in this world with a pure photo ID and no driver's license as long as you don't try to drive! (whether a person can get by without driving is an entirely separate question)
I expect that Freeman probably would protest even the separate photo ID card and I don't agree with that at all. There are valid reasons for the state to require a valid photo ID card for various purposes. And Islamic law has always recognized that there are situations where a person may be required to verify their identity and it commands women who wear face veils to take them off for that purpose (that was the point of citing the Munajjid fatwa).
But that's a different question than the one that's raised, because Freeman had her license completely revoked and is not allowed to drive. She's apparently fully qualified to operate a motor vehicle and passed all the tests. We can further assume that she wore her face veil during her drive test, yet the person who was administering the test did not feel that the veil impaired her ability to drive. Otherwise, Freeman wouldn't have passed the test.
In my opinion, if Freeman is qualified to drive (including while wearing the face veil), she should be able to get a non-photo license. If she does, she should also have to obtain a separate photo ID card. When asked to prove that she's authorized to drive, she can produce the license. If the police officer or other authority feels the need for further verification, he can request photo ID as well. He may not, just as my driving school did not. In that case, her modesty and religious sensibilities were not offended by unnecessarily displaying the photo. I also don't think that it poses an undue burden for the police to request the second ID card. The burden is on Freeman to obtain the card. I have no problems with requiring her to do so.
Maybe the point I'm trying to make is overly subtle or it seems like I'm making a big deal out of a small thing. I am trying to find a middle course that respects Freeman's religion while still upholding valid state interests.
I have had some indirect experience with photo IDs and you are right they work exactly the same except for driving. A couple of friends of mine when we were all interning in the Miami area one fine summer decided to get Florida state IDs since the clubs there were charging extra if you had an out-of-state license. It worked fine for that and other stuff.
The other issue is the women themselves. In Pakistan, a lot of women either don't get a national ID card (required for every adult) or get one without a photo. I know a number of women who don't even use a scarf (but do cover their heads loosely) who got the nonphoto ones. Whenever the government tried to make photos a requirement it failed completely.
It's not like you need a photo ID every single day. If you are intent on avoiding showing it, it is possible to get by except for those times when you have to.
I am not as stringent in my views about this issue as Aziz Poonawalla, but I think in general it is not a big issue.
OTOH the revoking of the license etc. make the legal aspects of the lawsuit a completely different beast. I won't touch that topic.
It's probably possible to get by without a photo ID at all, but I think it would be rather difficult these days. A lot of stores require it for credit card purchases these days, and if you write a check out of your local area. I also need to show ID if I'm getting cash back when depositing a check (this is the main way I get cash). When I was traveling by plane on my family vacation this last winter I had to show photo ID repeatedly. I've also had to show it for some of the paperwork when starting a new job (I don't remember exactly what it was that required it). If a person buys alcohol or cigarettes, they need ID (I don't buy either, but a lot of people do). I'm sure I could come up with other examples if I thought for awhile longer.
It's interesting that Freeman got away with it for so long. I'm sure that she must have had to produce her license as ID before she got caught but apparently the people figured her face veil looked like the face veil in the picture or something.
keep doing a good job. Keep trying, Keep sticking up for your beliefs and stay open. Asalamu alaykum,
John
>rgnlly pstd by ndhr -
rmm..thr thngs: n, th Krn ws NT frm mn, ths dn't thnk th lvl f qlty s s th sm s Hrry Pttr.
tw: wndr whch rprts hv pryng plc fr th Mslms?
thrdly, whch mslm cntry dd y g t rjctd y frm prctcng wht y blf . hmnst, wstrn...?
thnk y nd t wk p lttl, frm yr rlgs cndtnng.
1) f y thnk th krn r ny thr rlgs txt ws smhw mgclly prdcd, tht s ndd qvlnt t Hrry Pttr: sprsts sllnss.
2) Why r y skng fr spcfc xmpls? Bcs y thnk hv t 'prv' t? dn't. t s n bvs fct tht th Wst trs t ccmmdt slm nd thr r nmrs xmpls. fw mls frm whr lv thrs mslm r whr mst b bt 4 r 5 msqs.
3) f wr Chrstn (whch 'm nt), d y thnk mslm cntry wld lt m hv chrch? Plstnns hv bn syng f Jws jst ntr thr msqs, thy wll b klld. Srry, bt dn't s ny Lv n rlgn tht tlks lk tht.
4) f wr wmn - whch 'm nt - wld hv t ccpt th mslm cstms f wnt t mslm cntry. Tht s prhps th bst xmpl. Nw, wht bt tlrtng nd ccptng MY blfs, r vn my NN-BLFS? Srry, dsn't hppn. nd lk sd, thr s trmnds hypcrsy hr.
Thnk bt t.
I've been doing a little research about producing ID. In some states, a person can refuse to identify themselves to the police even during an arrest. Inshallah, I'll post up the information that I found, in case there are any other law nerds out there who are interested. People who are not law nerds can skip it
(appropriated from Matthew Yglesias's blog.
Thanks for posting the link. What I find interesting is the reason given for the ban: Allowing full-face covered persons to drive would give a chance to those with criminal intentions to commit crime under disguise and get away with it. I find that rather strange. If the reason was that the women's veiling impaired their ability to drive by blocking their vision, that would be reasonable. Following their same logic however, women should not be allowed to wear face veils at all in case somebody committed a crime while doing so. Where does this stop? As long as a woman's peripheral vision is good enough to pass the vision test and as long as her drive test clearly illustrates that she is able to drive safely while wearing a face veil, I think she ought to be allowed to do so.
I have a limit on my peripheral vision no matter what veiling I adopt: I wear eye glasses and thus my peripheral vision is relatively poor, both because there are no corrective lenses to the side and because of the frame of the glasses, which gets in the way a bit. Yet people who wear glasses are given driver's licenses all the time and drive all the time.
My face veil has an eye slit that is wide enough to accommodate my glasses and because of that it does not impair my vision to any substantial degree. Other styles of face veil might have a very narrow eye slit. The vision test can determine if that type of veiling impairs vision or not and when the woman takes the drive test, the licensing official can determine whether she is able to drive safely while wearing it.
The discussion in the comments section at Matthew's blog was excellent; there were a lot of good points raised there.
Regarding the reasons given by Bahraini officials, they seem to be of the category common in that region (and elsewhere). Every time there was a crime wave in Pakistan, pillion riding (i.e., 2 people on a motorbike) was banned. The argument was that the passenger was free to do anything including drive-by shootings. But what about car passengers?
The ACLU letter also addresses the question of requiring voters to provide some digits from their driver's license (or state ID card) number or social security number, which it also opposes.
We spent over a week of my civil rights law class on voting rights. In a way, they're the most fundamental rights of all, because if you can't vote, you can't protect your other rights. I think that we should be very, very cautious about preventing people from voting for any reason. There is a long, bad history in the U.S. of denying people the right to vote.
I think you need to wake up a little, from your religious conditioning.
I think your posts are all off-topic.Subject: face veils and the law
in the state of illinois is it ok to have a non picture ID or drivers licenes for the muslim woman or any woman with relgious reasons?for muslim woman to wear hijab on her hair only? or do you have to take the hijab off completly whyle you renew your drivers licenes or ID?