veiled4allah: Muslim voices 4

seunghyun said:

Total comments: 1

Hello,

Would you post below message?
Thank you.


People who want to share their views about the situation in Iraq now have another place to go. Researchers at the University of Wisconsin-Madison on Saturday announced the launch of a new, Internet-based survey about the U.S.-Iraq conflict.

The survey is open to anyone with Internet access. Web users can simply point their browser to http://www.journalism.wisc.edu/~dshah/protest/survey.html.

The researchers encourage you to participate in this study. “This is a great chance for people to tell us what they think about media coverage of the protests and the war,” said Professor Dhavan Shah, who is leading the project. “The more people we hear from, the more we can learn about public perceptions and actions.”

Shah is a professor in the School of Journalism and Mass Communication at UW-Madison. The study is part of a class he teaches on mass communication and democracy, and he hopes the data will help train the next generation of journalists and media scholars.

“This project grew out of the observation that many people find media coverage of this conflict to be biased against their views,” Shah said. “We hope that by surveying thousands of people and looking carefully at the results, we can better understand the cause of these perceptions and use them to improve media coverage."

For more information, contact Shah at protestsurvey@journalism.wisc.edu

Tora said:

Total comments: 12

Assalam Alaikum,

Some new Muslim sites i've come across are really nice, but I dont know whether you've seen them, or are in your list. But just incase you havn't, here they are:

link

link

note: comment edited to add hyperlinks

saffron said:

Total comments: 9

Best Blog on the web!!! I've been wanting to throw this into the melting pot for discussion for some time- not too sure if this is the place- but here goes. Al-Muhajabah I admire the strength of your beliefs. Please don't affended by my question but I was just curious how you have this strength of belief without factual evidence of your God. I guess this could be said of any believer in any religion- but putting your faith (and way of life) in something without explicit evidence seems almost bizzare to me. I'm obviously missing something here, and as a non-believer in any God I guess I am missing something.......but I would love to see your thoughts on why you can dedicate your life to something that (in my opinion) cannot be proven. What is it that I'm missing? thanks for your daily updates

Saffron.

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

Saffron, thanks for visiting and for commenting. To me, belief in God means believing that there is something beyond this world where injustice is prevalent and evil too often goes unpunished. It means believing that there is a unifying principle behind everything that happens, to give it meaning and purpose.

We believe in lots of things that we can't prove scientifically. Such as love, for instance. Most everything that makes us human and makes us unique is like that.

I'm sure that you have principles that you live by and that motivate your actions. By believing in God, I am just identifying a single, transcendent source for my principles.

saffron said:

Total comments: 9

Al-Munaqabah- I guess your right I do have things that motivate my actions- whether that is the same as putting my faith in something that cannot be proven is debatable. I always remember at school being taught bible stories- in which many of Gods actions could be seen to humans on earth. I always asked the teacher why God hadn't shown himself (in the form of actions or miracles) in the past hundred years..........it was as if God had gone on strike for a few hundred years.

I'm sure the same could be said of any faith's God- I mean what physical manifestation has your God carried out, in your eyes, over the past 100 years or so...........a period that has seen more misery, more death, more suffering that any other in human history? I'm curious in this time when more and more people are leaving religion behind what evidence do you have to back up your faith? I almost wish this evidence could exist- for I'm sure you would get millions (billions?) of people joining you in prayer for your God. Again I don't wish to offend, but I (and I guess millions of others) would need something more than just faith to devote my life to a religion.....to a God. thanks

Saffron.

Tora said:

Total comments: 12

You have some excellent questions Saffron.

God hasn’t shown himself clearly to us humans for the sole reason, that we are in this life as a test, it’s like a exam, to test how we worship God. Now would your teacher show you the answers to your end of years exam before the test? I think not. Therefore, god doesn’t too. But what God has done, he has spoken to us. He has spoken to us through various books, such as the Bible, Torah, Quran, however, the Torah and Bible were changed, edited, whilst the Quran to this day stands as the same one revealed 1400 years ago. In this book, god has commanded us what to do, and set some guidelines for us humans to follow. And the proof is out there, that god exists..look around you, the various scenery, the skies, the mountains, where did this all come from? Also in the Qur’an there is various scientific proof, that has come to light only now, which was revealed 1400 years ago. Refer to http://www.it-is-truth.com [For these scientific details].

There is a reason for suffering in this world..so that people may be tested, some people are tested by means of riches, whilst others are tested through suffering..it is actually though this suffering that the true nature of mankind is found.

The Qur’an has answers to all these questions.

Another good website to go to is http://www.beconvinced.com

And already Islam is the fastest growing religion-note God doesn’t need people to worship him-we need him.

And your questions are sensible, so don’t worry

saffron said:

Total comments: 9

Thanks for your reply. I must admit that I, as a non religious person still have problems with many of the points that you have raised.

Your proof that God exists due to the scenery, the skies and the mountains can easily be explained using science- indeed all things since the so called big bang can be explained through science. Yes questions must be asked where the big bang originated- but if that is the limit of Gods work then this is pretty limited. The teacher analogy is pretty limited- as whilst you are right that the teacher doesn't show me the exam answers before the exam- I do get proof of them after the exam. You are telling me I have to wait till death to find out the proof of Gods existence- that I'm afraid is a little late. All your God has to do is show me factual evidence of his existance and I (and millions of others) would flock to him.

I must I find your statement a little disturbing
"...it is actually though this suffering that the true nature of mankind is found"
I'm sure the millions of people who were tortured, mutiliated and killed over the past few years disagree that they were being merely tested by your God. I guess I will never be convinced without real proof- but I repsect your right to believe in your God.

What I love about this site is the Al-Muhajabah's version of Islam- it is very pure, idealistic and beautiful. I studied PPE (politics, philosophy and economics) at university and looked at marxism. Now this, at its base, is also a pure and beautiful view of life. However where it fails is in its application in the real world- it just cannot be super-imposed onto human kind. In the same way, from my view, you only have to look at the oppression and hatred caused by the human implementation of Al-Muhajabah's version of Islam throughout the Islamic coutnries to realise that it too cannot be super-imposed onto human kind.
Humans are just too flawed

...........discuss!!!!

Saffron.

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

Saffron, I have a huge problem with your statement:

In the same way, from my view, you only have to look at the oppression and hatred caused by the human implementation of Al-Muhajabah's version of Islam throughout the Islamic coutnries to realise that it too cannot be super-imposed onto human kind.

I cannot believe that you said my version of Islam is a cause of oppression and hatred!!! What is your basis for this statement? What have I written anywhere that authorizes oppression or hatred?

I have argued extensively against interpretations of Islam that try to force any person to become a Muslim or any Muslim to do some particular thing. I have argued against interpretations that justify aggression and hatred and have openly promoted a philosophy of non-violence. You yourself call it "beautiful". And yet you didn't say that oppression and hatred are caused by twisted versions of Islam. You didn't say that oppression and hatred are caused by the failure of people to live up to my version. You said that my version causes oppression and hatred.

I'm just so astonished at your statement that I can hardly respond. Maybe somebody else can give you a more coherent answer; right now I can't. What am I supposed to say? If promoting non-violence, peace, and freedom isn't enough - what am I supposed to say? I try my best to promote morality and you call me a cause of evil.

I feel like you just slapped me across the face.

saffron said:

Total comments: 9

No, no, no I didn't say your "version of Islam is a cause of oppression and hatred". Ohhh.....I'm having problems getting across exactly what I mean.........I'll give it another go. I was trying to use Marxism as an analogy. Marxism- if you read the theory sounds perfect- freedom, equality etc, etc for all. However it is because humans are imperfect- prone to greed, violence, vengence (and so on) that has meant that the human implementation of Marxism (as opposed to the theory itself) has become twisted beyond recognition- to the extend that the only commonality between the human implementation and the theory itself is that they share the same name; Marxism. The theory was sound, but humans- with these huge imperfections- cannot implement it without causing suffering, misery and death. In the same way your interpretation of Islam sounds perfect too. Despite this, throughout the muslim world, these foundations have been twisted so much that the only common thread that it has with your definition of Islam is the name itself. It's not so much whether this failure is, to quote you, "the failure of people to live up to <your> version"- but rather whether humans can (on mass), with all their imperfections, ever live up to your beautiful version of Islam. It is not your interpretation that is wrong- but the inability of mankind to ever come close to implementing this "pure" interpretation. I look at the repression in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Egypt, the former Taliban Afganistan (and the list goes on) to prove that having a sound theory or religion means nothing if mans(womans?) imperfections mean that he cannot get even close to implementing it. I'm not too sure if this helps define what I was trying to get across Is your cheek okay now?

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

Saffron, thank you for explaining Yes, I feel much better now.

I think what you've said is true not just of Marxism and Islam but also of Judaism, Christianity, and indeed every other religion or philosophy that sets out rules for people to live by.

Sometimes I feel pessimistic about the human race myself; it seems like the world is getting worse and worse. More war, more violence, more hatred. But I still think it's worth it to keep saying something beautiful and keep calling people to live up to their best. I don't think we can live without hope.

One of the things that Tora Bora mentioned is that this world is a test. Each of us is given knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil, and the consequences of each. We then have free will to choose our own course. Unfortunately, evil and injustice are inevitable consequences of human free will. Some people, given their choice, will choose to hurt others and deal unjustly with them.

When you think about a parent with a child, you know that the parent can't shield the child forever from the bad consequences of their actions. If the child is to become an independent adult, the parent has to eventually let the child sink or swim on their own.

I think a similar principle applies on the larger scale. In order for humans to fully develop our potential and free will, we can't be shielded from the bad consequences of our actions. God can't step in and prevent every evil from occurring. If He did, we would never learn or grow and we would not truly be free to choose our own fate.

God's interventions in human history are relatively limited and I think are in connection with conveying His message of religion. That is to give us the knowledge of right and wrong and their consequences that we need to make an informed choice.

I think that one of God's major aims for human beings is for each of us and all of us to achieve our true potential and fulfill our unique nature of free will. In order for us to do this, we must see and experience the full consequences of our actions, whether good or bad. The existence of evil and injustice is a direct consequence of human free will. Because God also does want justice, there is another world beyond this one, the Hereafter. Everyone who knew that what they were doing was wrong and continued to do it will be punished. Everyone who tried their best to do right and avoid wrong will be rewarded. For every harm and affliction that you face in this world yet you continue to try your best to be good, you will receive extra reward, because of the extra difficulty that you faced.

I hope this explanation helps you understand my faith better. If any part is unclear, please do not hesitate to ask questions!

saffron said:

Total comments: 9

thanks for the above.

I think the only thing I diverge from you is your comment

"the parent has to eventually let the child sink or swim on their own".

As a woman (albeit childless....at the moment) whilst we have to let our children learn from their mistakes- I don't think I could ever let them "sink".

I don't personally believe in any other (after-)life beyond that which we have now- but if I did I would hate to think that my God kept intervention in human history to a mininum. How could my God sit by whilst the weak, the unfortunate are mutilated, tortured and killed repeatedly throughout human history.

I just can't get this concept into my head- I guess it's not just in regards to Islam- but all religions. God- if he existed- has done the equivalent of a mother letting her child "sink".

If he showed himself....tomorrow for example....people throughout the world would change- would believe in him- follow his word- change their behaviour even...........but he doesn't. And I think it is this that has left millions- billions even- not believing God exists at all.

Changing the subject- in your opinion which country mirrors your view of Islam the closest?

Saffron

note: comment edited to remove lenghtly quote of previous comment

saffron said:

Total comments: 9

whoops I forgot to take your comment out of the above post.
sorry...Saffron.

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

I deleted the quote of the previous comment. I was going to tell you that you don't need to quote the entire thing. That's what it does by default, but you can edit it to select only the passages you want.

I hope that you'll continue to look at what religious people have to say about the existence of evil and the other issues that I discussed.

I can only repeat what I said before. I want to be morally adult, to bear full responsibility for my actions, both good and bad. Being an adult is difficult a lot of the time. We all wish that somebody would come along and wave a magic wand and make things better. But it doesn't work like that. If we blunt our failures it would also blunt our successes. They wouldn't truly be ours; we would have used a crutch to achieve them. That special joy we feel when we have accomplished something purely by our own efforts and struggle would be missing. I don't want to be a child and kept coddled, and I don't want to have a child's view of God.

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