veiled4allah: is it unpatriotic to pray for the success of the legislature and the country? veiled4allah: is it unpatriotic to pray for the success of the legislature and the country?We open this session of House of Representatives in the name of Allah the one God of Abraham, God of Moses, God of Jesus, and God of Mohammed, peace be upon them all. . . . We ask Allah or God to bless the state of Washington so it may continue to prosper and become a symbol of peace and tranquility for people of all ethnic and religious backgrounds. We pray that Allah may guide this House in making good decisions for the people of Washington. At this time, we also pray that America may succeed in the war against terrorism. We pray to God that the war may end with world peace and tranquility.This prayer was deemed so offensive to patriotism by two members of the Washington House of Representatives that they walked out while it was being given. Read their reasons why.
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However, I do think I understand the source of their error. They think praying to the same God upon whom their enemy calls, and in whose name their enemy makes war, is unpatriotic.
Clearly they didn't bother to listen to, or didn't understand, the "in the name of Allah the one God of Abraham, God of Moses, God of Jesus, and God of Mohammed, peace be upon them all" part.
As Hindus say when people get confused about the thousands of different gods: All Gods are one, all Goddesses are one, and variety is the spice of life. And we know how important spices are!
Seriously, the problem with incidents like this, aside from making Americans think that bigotry towards Islam is OK, is that it increases the plausibility of the idea that America is at war with Muslims and Islam. Which we aren't; we are completely uninterested in Muslims who have no oil, are nowhere near Israel and possess no WMDs. We take a little interest in the Sudan because they may have some oil down there, but considering the ongoing horror of the civil war, if we really based our foreign policy on humanitarian considerations, we would spend a lot more time trying to make peace in the Sudan than in Ireland or Israel/ Palestine.
I'm guessing that reports about this incident will go out, and they will be evidence for some people who are ready to believe the worst about America's being anti-Islam, just as some Americans jump on every flag burned in a Muslim country to say, "See! They're all terrorists!"
Anyway, happy new year to all celebrating that. Happy Mardi Gras/ Ash Wednesday to all celebrating *that*. No reason for Hindus to fast, feast or wear new clothes this week, but wait 'til March 26: Day production and use of biological weapons was outlawed world-wide (1975); day to mourn their victims. [Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on their Destruction a/k/a Biological Weapons Convention: signed 4/10/1972; entered into force 3/26/1975.] [India has a biological weapons research program. In the name of Devi-Vishnu-Shiva, and for love of Devi-Vishnu-Shiva, Hindus should renounce the production, acquisition, and use of biological weapons, and should demand destruction of all existing weapons.]
I found this on a website called "wheel of life." Somehow I don't think my grandmother is familiar with this holiday; it sounds like something that hippie whitefolks who converted to Hinduism came up with. But I certainly support it!
PG - Unfortunately I think that there are some people in this country who believe it is a war on Islam. More unfortunately, I think that some of these people hold positions of political power or influence. I don't find this incident understandable or acceptable at all. It's bigotry pure and simple. Surely Imam Joban's words make it clear what he stands for. If these people will ignore even that because they "know" what Muslims are "really like", what chance is there that they'll treat any other Muslim fairly? What hope do I have of changing their minds or of getting them to listen to me? What if I was their constituent? What about Muslims who are?
Laura - I agree with you. The ignorance is astounding.
It's not acceptable, but if we don't understand where it's coming from, how do we make change? If you think this attitude is widespread in America, how will we remove these legislators from office if the majority of their constituents feel the same way?
PS: Jonathan, the First Amendment does protect freedom of religion, as it does freedom of speech, but I would argue that some beliefs, whether theistic or secular, are not compatible with America: the Aryan white Christian neo-Nazi movements, for example. People are certainly free to have those beliefs, but I would feel morally required to walk out if someone started talking about how God didn't intend black and white to intermingle, etc.
Another point I was indirectly trying to make is that as a legislator, she has a responsibility to represent her constituents and their interests in the Legislature. If she has already decided that all her Muslim constituents are unAmerican regardless of how patriotic their words are, then she is failing her responsiblity to them. She is not a private citizen. Her prejudices affect the rights of others and may have the effect of limiting or taking away the rights of others. That's what makes this a particular serious issue.
Peace be with you.
But do they view you as their sister? That's the real question.
There are lots of Christians who don't consider Muslims to be their brothers and sisters. Like this McMahan woman. Why do you complain only about the Muslims?
There's as much intolerance and hatred at LGF as any of the worst coming out of the Muslim world. Who are you to lecture others and condemn them for what you yourself take part in?
A bit presumptuous, isn't this? - you're talking as if you could possibly know what one billion people think on the topic. I don't see where anyone should have to prove anything, to you, or to anyone else.
Re: McMahan, she apparently is too ignorant to actually be sorry, so I would trust any apology from her about as far as I can throw 'er. I think she should quit, since she's shown not only stunning lack of basic knowledge about the religion/culture she implicates is a threat to the US, but a clear bias against people who may be in her own constituency. How can we expect Muslims to get a fair shake from this person?
Why do you complain only about the Muslims?
Because, whatever excesses Christians might be guilty of, it's child's play in comparison with the "the worst coming out of the Muslim world". And then there's the small matter that, aside from a few "anti-abortion" lunatics, even the most extreme Christian wackjobs do not actually murder Americans (or anyone else) by the thousands.
You appear to be employing the classical tactics of misdirection and obfuscation. "Oh, Christian fundamentalists are just as bad as islamozoids." No, they are not (and I have no great love for them, believe me). "Oh, LGF folks are just as bad as rabid pups of CG." Hardly. Misdirection, obfuscation and moral equivalency.
And just as you don't speak for all the Muslims, as you so fond of re-stating whenever the especially hideous words and acts come from those speaking in Islam's name (and who am I to question them?), I am not some sort of LGF representative. I speak only for myself.
That being said, McMahon's case of sancta simplicita is rather unfortunate.
#16:
I don't see where anyone should have to prove anything, to you, or to anyone else.
Apparently 3000 people vaporized in a matter of minutes were not enough to open your eyes. I don't know what would be, then.
LGF has become the mirror image of what it hates and I'm sorry you can't see that.
As for American muslims proving themseleves because of the September 2001 terrorist attacks -- does anyone still think like that? There have been plenty of dicussions on this topic on many blogs. One long one took place over at Unmedia.
19 out of one billion people committed that act. Sorry, but that is hardly representative.
I take it you haven't been to Nigeria or Cote d'Ivoire lately.
You mean Cote d'Ivoire with its Muslim insurgency?
Nice example choice, Jonathan.
They did not fall from the moon. That is exactly representative. 19 murder, thousands provide material support, hundreds of thousands - ideological one, millions cheer, tens of millions silently agree.
Open your eyes. Nothing less then the fate of the West is at stake. If you deem it worth saving, of course. PC was the death of 3000, and can be the death of our civilization.
Nor for that matter, can I understand why a religion would choose to call the entire world that doesn't subscribe to it, "the house of war". Is its entire essence defined by its hatred of non-Muslims? Is it?
Look, I don't hate Muslims. But I have my eyes open, and I refuse to simply dismiss a question just because it makes someone "uncomfortable". Such an attitude already costed us 3000 lives. No more.
And a great part of the reason there's a Muslim insurgency in Cote d'Ivoire is that the Christian-dominated government has campaigned against Muslims for more than a decade. Most of the death squads and mob violence have been in the Christian part of the country.
Christianity in the Third World can be as militant a religion as Islam - there have also been Christian undercurrents to violence against Indians in South Africa and Fiji. Don't judge Christianity everywhere (or Islam everywhere) by the kind you read about in your hometown paper.
I guess you've never heard of the Irish Republican Army.
Second, regarding dar al-harb, there are actually three realms recognized by the classical scholars: Dar al-Islam (the abode of Islam), Dar as-Sulh (the abode of peace treaty), and Dar al-Harb (the abode of war). Regarding Dar as-Sulh, as long as the other side abides by the treaty, Muslims are forbidden to break the treaty (Surah at-Tawba verse 4). They are also forbidden to conspire with anybody against a treaty partner (Surah al-Anfal ayah 72). They are only permitted to make war if the other side has broken the treaty by aggressing against them, which is of course an act of self-defense. Additionally, if the other side in a war seeks peace, Muslims are required to accept that peace treaty and not seek a way against them (Surah al-Baqarat verses 190-193, Surah al-Anfal verse 61, Surah al-Anfal verse 72, Surah an-Nisa verse 90, and Surah an-Nisa verse 94). You can read this last set of verses here. Even when there is no peace treaty, the Quran forbids aggression (Surah al-Baqarat verses 190-193). Making war is only permitted for self-defense or to stop aggression and persecution against oppressed citizens of that country (Surah al-Hajj verse 39, Suran an-Nisa verse 75, and Surah al-Mumtahana verses 8-9). You can read these verses as well at the previous link.
You are correct that some Muslims like Bin Laden claim that there is only Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb but like so much else that Bin Laden says, their views are a distortion and perversion of Islam and a violation of what God has commanded in the Quran.
Hey sport, just because I don't go around making crude blanket statements about Islam, as you do, doesn't mean my eyes are not open. So please, spare me your hyperbole about "the fate of the West".
If I want to be lectured, I'll go back to grad skool instead of sitting here, reading paranoid tripe from some anonymous coward.
It's not as if adherents to Christianity are immune from genocidal actions: to wit, the recent conviction of a Rwandan Seventh-day Adventist pastor and his son of genocide. The two men were complicit in luring in Tutsi Seventh-day Adventists to a compound and then alerting Hutu militias, who then swept down for slaughter.
As for American Christians, it's not as if their hands are clean with regards to destructive cultural assimilation of native peoples. I know about this because it happened among my own ancestors at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. Christians were complicit in trying to "civilize" the "Indians" and bring them to Jesus, even if it meant destruction of the Native way of life.
I'm a follower of Jesus Christ and I'm more than well aware of the blood on our hands. Trying to say Muslims are worse is simply untrue.
Originally posted by Laura -
Apparently 3000 people vaporized in a matter of minutes were not enough to open your eyes. I don't know what would be, then.
19 out of one billion people committed that act. Sorry, but that is hardly representative.