veiled4allah: just a brief question

ken said:

Total comments: 5

Wht, prcsly, s th dffrnc?
Kn

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

The flag is a piece of fabric and a symbol, the Constitution is a document setting out the supreme law of the land. Would you care for me to go on?

Perhaps you mean that in swearing allegiance to the flag we're implicitly swearing allegiance to everything that the flag stands for, including the Constitution and the laws. But why not swear allegiance to the Constitution directly? Why swear allegiance to a flag instead?

Maliha said:

Total comments: 2

Assalamu Alaykum,
Simple.
The flag represents something larger than the constitution..this vague, illusion of everything that lady liberty stands for. When we pledge to the flag, we are inherently pledging to something a lot wider than the constitution..something that transcends the constitution.
So that's what happens when we talk about agreeing to let our civil liberties to be trampled for the sake of what "we stand for"...see a lot of things can slide this way...

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

I'm not sure I get your last point, sis Maliha. Are you saying that the current situation is a result of pledging allegiance to something as vaguely-defined as "what the flag stands for" instead of to something specific like the Constitution?

Maliha said:

Total comments: 2

Assalamu Alaykum,
Exactly sis. You summarized my point well. I think the current situation is way more complex than whether people stand for the flag or constitution (cuz in this case both are thrown out the window)...but at the same time, the whole sentiment behind things that are general is that its easy to define the parameters as you will. For instance the slogan we've been hearing much too often "War on Terror"...there is simply no limits to this...
again I digress...

Manish said:

Total comments: 17

On the other hand, the President pledges that he will to "the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." in his/her oath of office."

PG said:

Total comments: 64

Good point by Manish -- the president, and all government officials, have to promise to protect, defend, uphold the Constitution.

The Constitution, despite the many vaguenesses that give Constitutional scholars a reason to get up in the morning, is a fairly specific document. It is only a document; it could be transferred to another country -- and many other nations have based their constitutions on America's -- and there is nothing in it that applies particularly to the strip mall south of Canada, north of Mexico and bounded by two oceans.

Some history: Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister and Christian Socialist, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. It said, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." He thought about adding "equality" in with liberty and justice, but he knew that many people opposed equality for women and racial minorities.

"The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches... we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all."

I am fine with saying the Pledge in this form, "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stand, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Anyway, I am off to get a King cake for my office. Not a Christian and don't celebrate Lent, but I do believe in Mardi Gras!

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

Thanks for visiting, PG, and thanks for the background information. It's not that I have some major objection to pledging allegiance to the flag, it's just that I've wondered for a long time why we do instead of to the Constitution, which seems a more logical object of allegiance.

Do citizens of other countries pledge allegiance to their flags? Does anybody know? I'm curious.

John Snethen said:

Total comments: 1

Pledging to the flag as opposed to something else is probably just an accident of history. Before 1892, there was no pledge. The pledge itself was written for a youth magazine by a Christian/Utopian/Socialist minister on the 400th anniversary of Columbus landing in the Americas. The owner of the magazine also owned a flag factory and noticed that very few public schools had an American flag. A pledge would certainly help boost sales, and it did. So the pledge resulted from a combination of capitalism and Christian idealism. Can't get more American than that, eh?

As for other countries, I've traveled quite a bit and haven't found any that revere their flag quite as much as Americans--except maybe the Saudis, who print the shahada on their flag.

Why not pledge to the Constitution? Well, lots of people do when they take oaths of office--judges, politicians, lawyers, presidents, governors. Why don't private citizens pledge to the constitution? Because its not their job to uphold it--it's their right to be protected by it.

At least it was until Ashcroft became Attorney General.

Best,

John

catherine said:

Total comments: 1

I'm from the UK and we have nothing to compare to your "pledging allegiance to the flag" and I cant think of any where else where they do,other than the US. The nearest I can think of to it is when we had assembly at school in the mornings when we
used to say the Lords prayer and sing a few hymns. However with such diverse cultures this is now obselete which I agree with.
My interest in the American flag comes from my concerns about my sister who has recently married an American and they plan to have children soon. When I brought the subject up she asked me if "they really did do that" and looked concerned as its something we cannot see begin to comprehend. I am concerned that it surely incites feelings of nationalism which are rife in the UK as Im sure you know and a negative attitude in our global village! Arguments between Irish catholics and Irish Protestants being the most infamous, lesser known areas such as Scotland, Wales and Cornwall are all striving for their languages to be resurrected and gain more independence from England. I hope to be able to say in years to come that I am a British European and I feel unnerved that the USA appears to be so old fashioned and insular. There must be masses of children in schools who feel marginalised and outcast by this practice.
I am not trying to be rude just looking for info!

Originally posted by Al-Munaqabah -

Thanks for visiting, PG, and thanks for the background information. It's not that I have some major objection to pledging allegiance to the flag, it's just that I've wondered for a long time why we do instead of to the Constitution, which seems a more logical object of allegiance.

Do citizens of other countries pledge allegiance to their flags? Does anybody know? I'm curious.

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