veiled4allah: terrible comparisons, terrible questions veiled4allah: terrible comparisons, terrible questionsYes, everytime the Nazi comparison is made, people cry out agains the comparison as obscene (although the same people often seem to have little trouble to the casual comparisons of Saddam Hussein to Hitler) or that other regimes are more repressive. Which is true-- next door Syria comes to mind. But repression tied to racism and ethnic domination has its own horror beyond mere dictatorship, for it combines loss of freedom with psychological degradation, and destroys any sense of common humanity.You should read his whole post, since he addresses several other points as well. Another writer that has addressed this particular question is Israeli dissident Ran HaCohen:
I visited Syria back in 1999 and it was clear that no one could speak their mind, yet it was also obvious that people could also live their lives in some degree of common life, however restricted. I also visited the West Bank, at probably the time of maximum freedom under the Palestinian Authority before the second intifada broke out. And even then, the continual police checkpoints you had to cross felt like jolts to the soul, however mild they were then. At the full level of restraint today -- where Jews can move freely while Palestinians are caged like animals -- such a system of ghettoization violates any sense of humanity.
No, it is not Nazi Germany circa 1943.
It is Nazi Germany circa 1938.
Those who can defend Israel on that basis should be ashamed.
So this is the Auschwitz logic in a nutshell. Ramallah is not Auschwitz. Israel is not the Third Reich. We have no death-camps and we haven't massacred one third of the Palestinian population in gas chambers. Therefore, everything we do is quite all right. We may fill the occupied territories with tear gas and blood, we may kill and injure and torture and blackmail and dispossess, we may surround millions by electric fences and tanks in tiny enclaves, we may hold them under siege and daily bombing, we may make pregnant women walk to hospitals, and we shoot ambulances too, don't we. But as long as we fall even an inch short of the atrocities of Nazi Germany, it's all fine and good, and don't you dare make the comparison.How could anyone whose people went through the horrors of Nazi Germany treat another people in any way that resembled 1930s Germany to even the slightest degree? How terribly tragic and sad.
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The occupation of the West Bank has resulted in many immoral acts committed against Palestinians, but that doesn't make Israel into Nazi Germany - even 1930s Nazi Germany. The two are qualitatively different on so many levels - starting with the fact that Israeli repression is occurring in the context of a two-sided war while Nazi repression was entirely one-sided and ideologically motivated - that comparisons aren't very helpful. In almost all cases where I've seen the Israel-Nazi Germany comparison made, it has been a facile attempt to demonize Israel and is calculated more to offend and inflame than to communicate. (I'm not accusing you of doing this, but my experience is that this is true in 99-plus percent of cases.) The closest comparison to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is probably the Algerian war of independence rather than anything that took place in World War II, and there are significant differences even there.
And, for the record, I do object to comparisons between Saddam Hussein and Hitler. Comparisons with Nazi Germany shouldn't be made lightly, and bad as Saddam is, I don't think Ba'athist Iraq belongs with Nazi Germany on the scale of evil.
I'm glad you posted the first comment here, I expect the firestorm will break over me soon enough and it won't be nearly so thoughtful and polite.
There has been a tendency to compare every atrocity to the Nazis. I think that is completely unproductiove. Oppression can take many forms and be completely different from the Nazi model and still be despicable.
But repression tied to racism and ethnic domination has its own horror beyond mere dictatorship, for it combines loss of freedom with psychological degradation, and destroys any sense of common humanity.
He feels, and I feel, that there is something terribly wrong about what is happening to the Palestinians and he's grasping for a comparison that will express this similarity on an elemental level. I don't think he's trying to make a point-by-point one-to-one comparison.
Perhaps this particular comparison is simply too emotionally explosive to ever be used. I don't know.
f srl ws rlly cmprbl t Nz Grmny thr wld b n nd fr ths dscssn. Thr wld b n Plstnns t cmpln. srl hs hd th cpblty t ttlly lmnt th Plstnn prblm nd hs hd lgtmt cs t d s. Thy hv bn ttckd n fv sprt ccsns (n wrs dscrbd s gncdl n ntnt by th prptrtrs) snc th stt f srl ws stblshd. Thy lctd NT T D S!
ls, kp n mnd, f th srl nd Plstnn pstns wr rvrsd thr wld hv bn n sch mrcy shwn t th Jws. Tth Plstnns wld hv mrdrd vry mn, wmn nd chld n srl (tht cld nt swm wy). Hms nd thr mltnt fctns cntn t stt tht s thr gl t ths dy.
Kn
Israel has had the capability to totally eliminate the Palestinian problem and has had legitimate cause to do so
Are you saying that genocide against the Palestinian people would be legitimate?
Some people - as you say - might make the comparison more intellectually, or as a wake-up call: i.e., Israelis aren't Nazis, but Look Where All This Can Lead. Anyone who does so, though, will have to be prepared for a visceral response because of the commonly understood connotations discussed above. The fact that many if not most Israeli-Nazi comparisons are intended to demonize Israel and portray it as the ultimate evil only adds to the misunderstanding when the comparison is made in any other way. I think it is too emotionally explosive to use, both because it is understood emotionally and because it is, for the most part, meant emotionally.
m syng tht nyn r ny grp tht hs bn ttckd rptdly by nthr grp, wth th sl ntntn f dstryng thm, hs th rght t d wht vr s ncssry t stp ths ttcks. Th Jws r fmlr wth gncd nd vn f thy wr nt, Hms nd thr Plstnn grps mk thr ntntns vry clr.....n ntrprttn s ndd.
Th pnt tht y mss s tht th Plstnns r ttckng th Jws BCS THY R JWS! srl s ttckng th Plstnns n dfns f thr lvs nd thr tny pc f lnd n th mddl st.
Th NLY gncdl ntntns cm frm th Plstnns. Th srls wld rspnd t ny thr grp tryng t kll thm n th sm wy, clr, crd, ntnl rgn ply n prt n th srl fght.
Y cn rg dffrntly bt th Plstnn ldrshp spprts my pstn nrly vry dy n thr prss rlss!
Kn
I've advanced the Apartheid South Africa -- Israeli occupation comaprison a few times before (Jonathan disagrees). It's closer, but still not quite right. Old ZA had a subordinate vision for blacks, and controlled the education system, the marriage laws, residency laws, etc., to try and achieve that vision.
Israel lacks any vision for Palestinians, and the situation has spun out of its control. A more explicitly colonial policy in the 70s might have allowed Israel to consciously shape Palestinians society. But (again, Jonathan has pointed out), Israel (and Palestinians) didn't realize the colonial nature of the relationship back in the 70s. Israel wound up unconsciously shaping Palestine and the result has been negative. (I think its Ok to bame Israel here. An occupying or colonial power is responsible for the society it administers, and should take the credit or blame for the kind of society produced)
I don't think the Algerian comparison is quite right either. The relationship between France and the French in Algeria was much closer than the relationship between USA and Israelis is. I would bet that Jewish Israelis feel far more isolated thatn Frnech Algerians ever did (and perhaps as isolated as Afrikaaners felt which is why I push the ZA comparison).
The Electrolite blog has a statement up by some guy named Burke -- "History is a good teacher, but if you just go looking for the lessons you want, I promise you that you will always find them, and learn very little in the process. "
The Algeria analogy, on the other hand, is IMO closer than you think. It isn't the Israelis as a whole who are the pieds noirs - it's the West Bank settlers, and the residents of Israel proper are in the role of the metropolitan French. Like the current intifada, the Algerian war (1) began with minor terrorist incidents and spiraled out of control due to excessive government response; (2) was fought between two sides who each considered themselves indigenous; (3) involved a relatively liberal metropolitan country in which reactionary settlers held disproportionate power due to colonial politics; and (4) was fought against a popular nationalist movement that coalesced in the 20th century in response to perceived colonialism. I could come up with a few more parallels if I thought about it for a while - IMO the analogy is close enough that I feel safe using it to make predictions, although your mileage may vary.
I like the Burke quote. If it helps, the Algeria lesson wasn't at all the one I wanted to find.
As usual, I agree the most with Ikram, but you have all made excellent points. I'm particularly interested in Jonathan's point about whether the South Africa analogy should be limited to Israel's treatment of Arab Israelis.
My understanding based on what I've read is that although there is a single over-arching Israeli citizenship, there are multiple nationalities, including Jewish and Arab, that all citizens are required to be registered as one of, and different rights are assigned based on nationality, particularly in regard to land ownership. If this is correct, then it's the granting of different rights based on nationality (which is based on ethnic identity) that inspires people to make the comparison to South Africa, even if, as Jonathan says, the comparison can't be taken too far. Again, I think that many (though not all) of the people who make this sort of comparison are pointing to an essential similarity of nature, rather than intending to make a point-by-point one-to-one correspondence.
And this doesn't get into whether the situation in the Occupied Territories can and should be compared to South Africa.
When all is said and done, Israel is committing injustice. If one takes the Palestinian view of things, then Palestinian violence is entirely a response to being treated unjustly. But even if one takes the Israeli view of things that it was Palestinian violence that started it, responding in an unjust manner is only going to cause more violence and is unlikely to be a lasting solution.
Note: I have previously and repeatedly condemned the injustice and wrongness of Palestinian suicide bombings and would be happy to discuss that issue in the comment threads devoted to it. This particular thread happens to be a discussion of Israel's policies.
T qt nthr thr "Thr y g gn"!
nvr dvctd gncd, s th rbs nd spcfclly th Plstnn mmbrs f slm d. Pls, tll m tht th Krn sys t s nt rght nd th rbs n gypt, Sd rb, Syr, rn, rq r nt dvctng t. Thn y rlly d hv yr hd n th snd nd r gnrng pblctn ftr pblctn ftr pblctn.............................................
Wht sd s tht th srl, ftr bng rptdly ttckd by grp tht hs n ntnt bt th XTRMNTN f vry Jw thy cn rch hs xhbtd grt rstrnt n dlng wth tht grp. ls sd tht th Plstnn, Syrn, rnn, rq.........frcs wld cmmt gncd gnst th Jws t th frst pprtnty. Tht prcptn s bsd n THR wrtngs nt tht f th Jws r nyn ls.
Pls tll m hw tht dvcts gncd gnst th Plstnns? ls pls pnt t ny prt f ths sttmnt tht s fctlly nccrt?
Thnk y fr yr knd cnsdrtn.
Kn
You are correct that some Palestinians have advocated this. May God forgive them for their sins. However, most Muslims that I know and from what I have read most ordinary Palestinian people certainly do not. They would like to see a two-state solution. You seem to read only one side of the story and assume that that is all there is. I am not blind to the evils of Hamas and other Palestinian groups; however, I do not believe that that is the only viewpoint out there.