veiled4allah: more double standards

starrysky said:

Total comments: 19

*sigh*



have a nice day sis
ramadan mubarak
have a nice iftar
have a nice thursday
and everything
and have nice everything'

Mr. Oudija said:

Total comments: 6

they only do what we allow them to do. if we were all strronger people it wouldnt be like that.

look at the african americans

there was a huge double standard on them and out and out pure racism. but they fought it all off and now they get treated a lot better

what do we muslims do? complain amongst ourselves... If we wanted a better life here we'd make one plain and simple.

now im not saying everything iss good for the african american, but they fought for what they wanted...civil rights

what great things have we done to achive what we want? not enough. Ive tried to help, but noone wants any, so i only help myself from now on.

somer said:

Total comments: 4

happy now?

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

somer - It's a start. Now let's see more of it.

somer said:

Total comments: 4

A start? This country's leadership and the media in general have bent over backwards to not insult muslims or portray them (in general) as bad people. After 9/11 we heard President Bush calling Islam a religion of peace, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, Rudy Giuliani put cops on the beat to protect Muslim centers in case there were reprisals against them and the Muslim community in general, the general population's has behaved admirably, considering all the circumstances, towards muslims in general (in other countries such as India, when muslims carry out attacks there is usually grave retribution). It's sad that the stance many muslims have taken after 9/11 is to hide behind the mantle of victimhood. You want to talk about double standards? Look at the vitriol being spouted in the mosques regarding the Jews and "infidels" (everyone who just happens not to want to believe or even care about your religion). Seldom does one see all that hatred and intolerance being repudiated in the Muslim world. Just for the record, regarding the article you referenced, did not Mohammed marry aisha who was around 9 years old when the marriage was consumated? Did he not kill and terrorise those that opposed him?

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

Muslims condemning terrorism and hatred in the name of Islam

The Quran on jihad

What Islam really says: killing the innocent is forbidden

Somer, I would advise you to take some time to actually learn about Islam before you condemn it. Don't take all your information from places like LGF. Talk to Muslims yourself and hear both sides of the story. Then make your own judgment.

As to whether the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) "terrorized" the people around him, the answer is "no" and if you had even the slightest knowledge of Islamic history you would know that.

Concerning the marriage to Aisha, you can read some Muslim responses to this here. I recommend you to also read Maidens and Warriors by the Israeli Jewish author Israel Shamir, to help you put this in context.

You sound to me like your mind is already made up and you're not interested in the facts. I hope I'm wrong.

somer said:

Total comments: 4

You fear I've made up my mind about what exactly? I don't see all muslims as bad, though I do have problems with many parts of the koran (with my limited knowledge of it.) I find many teachings troubling and incompatible with our modern, liberal, plural, democratic way of life. I don't recall condemning Islam as a whole or Muslims as a whole, I condemned the real double standard that exists in the Muslim world and perpetrated mostly by Western Muslims. I have taken a lot of time and effort in order to learn more and more about Islam, it's tenets, it's followers and I am sincerely troubled by a lot of it. I've met quite a few muslims online from the Arab world and they generally have been quite forward with their opinions about how the koran does justify killing innocents in Israel, how we Americans deserved 9/11 for all the humiliation and suffering we have caused them (nevermind the economic and humanitarian aid as long as they can portray themselves as victims.) The hatred being spouted in the mosques (jews are monkeys and pigs, jihad is the highest honor for a muslim - all justified with sura and hadiths), the general media support and praise for terrorism (in and out of Israel), the litany of conspiracy theories devised to blame Israel/US for everything wrong in the universe, the apologists cries of persecution, racism, bigotry simply for people exposing the truth (Islam is not perfect and it has its many troubles, just like all ideologies created by man) is sickening to most decent people. The current fad of hiding behind the mantle of victimhood if Islam is criticized or if an opinion that does not present it in the most bening/politically correct light is somewhat troubling as well (why is Islam above criticism and critical analysis?). I can certainly understand American Muslims being a bit jittery about being stereotyped or discriminated against, that is a legitimate concern but the evidence demonstrates that there generally isn't an anti-muslim bias in the media nor in the American populace and there never was any "backlash" in any real sense (btw people looking at muslims in a weird way is not a hate crime, I get looked at funny sometimes as well). When one hears about the hatred and intolerance coming out of the mosques in mecca and medina, which one would inevitably assume serve as somewhat of an authority on Islam since they are its two holiest sites, one starts to wonder if Islam really is all about peace or if everyone who says so is just an apologist for it or simply not very knowledgeable and wishing not to politically incorrect (usually equated with racism or bigotry in our highly sensitive society nowadays).
Mohammed didn't terrorise or kill anyone? Or do you mean he didn't do it himself? You link to Israel Shamir and consider him a reliable source of information? That's rich, considering even the apologist from CAIR Hussein Ibish has distanced himself from him because of his anti-semitic screeds. For the record, I think falwell is an idiot part of the very fringe element of America's intolerant Christian right who is more interested in saying controversial things than anything else. And just for any Muslims out there reading, WE'RE ALL subject to being troubled with new tighter security - that's the price we pay for our security. Whining doesn't help and won't be received well by others especially when we all have to go through it. That would be like me complaining that I have to go through security checks because I'm hispanic, yet ignoring all the old white ladies going through the same thing.
LGF is a very informative site, apologists dislike the fact that it exposes all the hatred coming out of the mosques, the hypocritical nature of apologists who scream racism or bigotry yet turn a blind eye to things going on in their own countries (saudi representatives whining about their citizens being discriminated by having their fingerprints taken and how this was an anti-muslim bias, yet christians are not allowed to practice their religion in their country and jews aren't even allowed to step on their soil). I haven't made up my mind about ALL Muslims but I see a lot of problems with Islam and the apologists who fail to see there really are things that need to be reformed or simply discarded instead of apologized for or put into "context" (justified, excused, obsfuscated) that's all.

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

Somer, thanks for taking the time to reply in depth. It helps me understand much better where you're coming from and what issues you have with Islam.

First, as a side note, I do not agree with everything that Israel Shamir has written. There is probably no columnist out there that I agree with all of what they've written. However, Shamir in that particular article presents some information about the Talmud and Jewish teachings that provides a useful and important context for our discussion and I have reason to believe that his information about the Talmud is correct.

Moving forward, you need to understand that when you say that Islam itself is bad or evil, you necessarily imply that all Muslims are in some way bad or evil. How could we not be if we follow an evil creed? You are welcome to read my writings in this blog and at my website www.muhajabah.com. You will find that I have never in any way advocated for terrorism or violence against civilians. I have never advocated for hatred of non-Muslims or called for them to be forcibly converted or killed. The Islam that I believe in condemns such attitudes.

In fact, that gets to the crux of the issue. Bin Laden and others have an interpretation of Islam that they follow and that they use to justify their actions. I have an interpretation of Islam that I follow and that I use to condemn their actions. The interpretation of Islam that I follow commands justice and condemns hatred and terrorism. It sets out a moral way of life and responsibilities that we owe to our planet and to our fellow human beings, responsibilities that we will be called to account for by God if we fail.

How is it that you "know" that my interpretation of Islam is false and that of Bin Laden is true? What if my interpretation of Islam is the true one and his is the false one?

Not everything that Muslims do is commanded by Islam. Indeed, quite often, Muslims act contrary to Islam, they violate its commands and pervert its teachings. They fail to live up to it. Unfortunately I cannot control what other people do. I can only speak up for what I see to be the truth and hope that others will listen.

I am not someone who is famous or important. Maybe my words on this website don't reach a very large audience. But I am making the effort because I believe it is my moral obligation to do so.

As to LGF, I have rarely seen such a torrent of hatred and bigotry against Islam as in the discussion that is carried on in the comments of that blog. It is as bad as anything that you accuse Muslims of saying about non-Muslims. If you can't see that, I think you need to look again. LGF has turned into a mirror of exactly what it claims to hate. Again, I recommend you to take information on Islam from more sources that just LGF.

CaptainK said:

Total comments: 1

Somer...you're an anti-semetic hate monger. Your type will never learn.

somer said:

Total comments: 4

Pardon the late reply, I realize this post is a few days old. It's definitely true that though one may not agree completely with everything particular columnist has written, sometimes something they write may actually be worthwhile. The idioms "a stopped clock is right twice a day" and "even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while" come to mind. However, sometimes the general positions/opinions of some columnists do indeed "poison the well", as it were, because the tremendous bias that can be clearly seen from their general work. Plenty of his columns are outright anti-Semitic. They Espouse hatred for Jewish people under the guise of objectivity and concern for the conditions that palestinians live under - of course while at the same time explaining away the barbarity perpetrated by terrorists and the support given by what seems to be the general palestinian populace. He seems to tout himself as simply anti-Zionist or anti-Israel, and uses his Jewish heritage as a cover yet his writings are generally rabid ranting with little to no substance and intellectually and morally hollow.
Regarding the Talmud reference in that article it's just an exercise in apologetics using scriptures of another religion, one that as far as I can tell does not take everything in its holy texts and absolutely literal and without the capacity of being modernized. If a man nowadays told you that he wanted to marry and have sex with a nine year old girl and showed you all the possible intellectual/theological justifications for it, would that make him any less of a pedophile? I think not. Many, many centuries have passed since the time of Mohammed, one could easily say that our standards (particularly western ones) should not be applied to ancient civilizations. But then this brings into question the prophet's wisdom and the universality of Islam since the Koran is considered the literal word of God, Islam the one true faith (like pretty much other religions it claims it is the righteous past, and that's fine), and Mohammed his messenger whose actions are indicative of how one should lead one's own life.
I didn't write that Islam is evil but that I do have trouble with some of its teachings That doesn't mean I consider all Muslims in general wicked or evil (there are of course good and bad people no matter what their faith or even if they don't subscribe to one). I have trouble with teachings in other religions as well but that does not mean I regard every practitioner of it as vile or evil. There is a lot to be gained by spirituality. Religions can actually provide a good solid path for people and contribute to society, even I a secular individual can understand that very well. Just because someone says they are find trouble with something and feel that it's a subject not above critical analysis and in need of reform does not a bigot make. Martin Luther saw plenty wrong with the way the Church had subverted the teachings of Jesus Christ and sought its reformation. Many Christians do not agree with some of the teachings contained in the very book that guides them through life, whether they could be considered hypocrites or enlightened for taking what's good about their religion and holding on to that is up for debate; my opinion is the latter. My problem with Islam is that what generally can be understood as intolerant, backwards, violent teachings are accepted not only as decreed and accepted by the almighty himself but something to strive for in one's life and in one's society. At least in what could best be described as the "Muslim world" (the intolerance of the wahabbis, the indoctrination of the madrassas, the overt support and praise for murdering of innocent people using nationalistic pursuits and grievances as excuses for it in the mosques and so on and so forth). Of course not all Muslims are going to follow every single teaching nor interpret them the same way especially when one can see that there are contradictory teachings within the Koran itself. One verse may say that killing one person is like killing all mankind, and another that there is no compulsion in religion, and yet another that Allah is not happy with transgressors. Others advise one to not even make friends with Jews and Christians and to lie in wait for the pagans or unbelievers to maim and kill them, and that virgins are your reward in the hereafter for waging jihad "holy war in the name of Allah" not the whitewashed "internal struggle" the western apologists and obfuscators would have us believe. You need to understand that criticism of some aspects of your religion or the way that many choose to practice it is not the same as saying it is bad or evil or that all practitioners of it are themselves bad or evil.
It’d be wonderful if the brand of Islam that you seem to practice (one which takes the best things from it and believes in the peaceful coexistence with all types of other people and repudiates violence – as far as I can see) were more widespread. I wish that when a homicide bomber blew himself up in the name of Allah for the sake of killing as many Jewish people as possible in the hopes of making the Israeli government capitulate to their demands that the Imams in the most prominent mosques would outright condemn it as blasphemous. Yet, one sees quite the contrary and it’s very disheartening. If you were to go somewhere in the Arab world like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morocco and openly espouse your beliefs for co-existence, for peace, for mutual understanding (between palestinians and Jews or between Muslims and the Western world) it is highly doubtful you would be well received. In fact, it’s more likely you would put yourself in grave danger by doing so. You would more than likely be branded a “collaborator” and part of some sort of Zionist conspiracy to undermine the plight of Palestinians. Moreover, you’re right, that is the crux of the matter. Which brand of Islam is the “right one”, what would make it the “right interpretation” and who could even decide that anyhow? That matter is of utmost important in our times, because of the constant bloodletting justified by holy texts, scholars, and imams. The problem is that there isn’t an authoritative source on that and the best hope of achieving an understanding of such a thing would be to read what’s coming out of the mosques, the scholarly interpretations and opinions, the consistency between individual and group actions and the religious texts.
Yes, I understand that Muslims don’t always act in accordance to all the teachings that you follow and not all that a Muslim does is motivated by religion, I think that goes without saying. However, one should not shirk from confronting those that use their religion to justify heinous crimes.
I hope that many other people will reach your site and find the many valuable things in it. The good things such as condemnations against terrorism, quoting the Koran to show that fanatics are indeed acting against some of the Koran’s teachings in essence perverting them, engaging in reasoned discourse with people even if they may not entirely agree with your viewpoints or opinions such as me.
Generally I don’t ever post comments on blogs, but your post on the double standards struck a nerve because it seems that a lot of Muslims nowadays want to wallow in a state of victimhood. Yes we definitely should stand up against bigotry, we should not ignore it in its many manifestations but there’s a problem with getting into that state of mind where every little slight, every bad look, every difficulty (real or imagined) is explained away as anti-Muslim bias.
In regards to LGF, it’s true that sometimes people go over the top and write comments that aren’t constructive in the least bit that are mostly out of emotion. But I think that you will find that most regulars call for restraint from that type of language and do engage in interesting and insightful discussions. It’s true, some of the things said in the comments section are just outright bad on par with things said by the imams, scholars, and state controlled media about non-Muslims. Of course, I get my information about Islam from more than just one source (btw LGF is not a resource on learning about Islam, it’s a blog that daily exposes the vileness of the fundamentalist, supremacist, hateful interpretation of Islam that seems to be gaining more and more ground). Just because some people do post bad things does not mean that it’s fair for you to tarnish LGF as a bigoted site as a whole and ALL those that comment with the same brush (just like non-Muslims should not interpret lunatics justifying murder with religion as representative of ALL Muslims or most Muslims). There’s also the question of free speech, LGF is a privately run website and I think that if you try reading the comments section past the idiotic posts you will see that many are just trying to understand (the ones that actually are willing to discuss, of which I believe there are many) everything that’s going on in the world. Like you state on your post about SV banning of avatars that advocate violence:
“A lot of members feel that views should not be censored, even though they don't personally agree with those views. Instead, they feel that there should be free and open debate of these issues with both sides allowed to speak their opinions.”
Such is the case at LGF, as far as I can see people who don’t agree with a certain opinion are welcome to contribute with their own no matter how unpopular it may be. I for one am opposed to censorship in general. Anyhow, I don’t really think that is all that important but we can discuss it further if you are so inclined. Perhaps it would be better if we did it through email? I look forward to further discussions.
Captaink, I won’t even dignify that with a response..

Al-Munaqabah said:

Total comments: 996

Thank you for your reply, Somer.

The reason I wrote this post is not to cry victimhood or to ask for special privileges for Muslims. All I would like is equal treatment.

Statements are made about Islam that are would not be considered socially acceptable if they were made about other religions, and the response of certain individuals is "well, Islam is evil" and that's why it's OK to say so.

I'm sorry, it is not. As to its scripture and its tenets, Islam is no different from Judaism or Christianity. Believe me, if I wanted to, I could quote you pages of violent passages and apparent contradictions in the Bible. What would that prove? I don't know. If the existence of certain passages in the Quran makes Islam evil, then the existence of similar passages in the Bible ought to make Judaism and Christianity evil. That would be applying the same standard to all three religions. But if the existence of those passages in the Bible doesn't make Judaism and Christianity evil, then the existence of similar passages in the Quran should not make Islam evil. Again, that would be applying the same standard to all three religions.

I could also point to massacres, killing, and general barbarity in the name of the Bible and claiming the authority of the Bible for it. But what would that prove? I don't know. If the fact that Muslims have committed atrocities in the name of their religion makes Islam evil, then the fact that Jews and Christians have committed atrocities in the name of their religions ought to make Judaism and Christianity evil. That would be to apply the same standard to all three religions. And if the fact that Jews and Christians have committed atrocities in the name of their religions does not make Judaism and Christianity evil, then the fact that Muslims have committed atrocities in the name of their religion should not make Islam evil. Once again, that would be to apply the same standard to all three religions.

We could also if we chose talk about Christian fundamentalism and Jewish fundamentalism. The fact is, fundamentalism and extremism seem to be on the rise in all religions, not just Islam, and some of the things that Christian and Jewish fundamentalists are doing or want to do are no better than some of the things that Muslim fundamentalists are doing or want to do. If you want to read an excellent book about this, try "The Battle for God" by Karen Armstrong. I highly recommend it.

You see, the way that I see it, Islam is being treated as a special case, and not like other religions. A different set of rules is being applied to judge Islam than is applied to other religions. That is what I have called a "double standard".

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Once again, thank you for visiting my blog and for engaging me in dialogue. It is always good to get feedback from my readers and to learn about how others view things.

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