There simply is no logical or ethical comparison between the killings and desecrations of the four private commandos at Fallujah by a mixture of guerrillas and mobs, and the systematic torture of Prisoners of War by a democratic country.
Any equivalence would suggest that the United States military is not, and cannot be expected to be, better than an enraged mob in a small occupied city in Iraq's western desert. What was done to the commandos was horrible, and it was a crime by civilians and irregulars who should be arrested and punished.
The United States is a government, not a mob. As such, it has entered into treaty relations and made commitments to international law. It is a signatory of the Geneva Conventions, which govern how prisoners are to be treated. The United States army violated the Geneva Conventions when it tortured Iraqi prisoners of war. Period. It was a series of serious crimes not by isolated civilians but by agents of the US government. Crimes of states are always more serious than crimes of individuals, because states are organized collective institutions upon which civilization depends. There is no excuse for it, least of all that sometimes town mobs have behaved worse.
The four dead American commandos at Fallujah, who were not uniformed military, have already occasioned a brutal siege of the city and over 600 Iraqi deaths, some proportion of them civilian. Shall they now also excuse the torture of dozens of Iraqis at Abu Ghuraib? And this, months after the fact? Is this Iraq enterprise an occasion for endless serial revenge, or an attempt to share democratic values with a beleaguered population all too used to torture and oppression? In the sordid calculus of race, how many Iraqi lives and psyches exactly are worth four American ones?
The issue of hypocrisy is also important here. The rabble of Fallujah never pledged that they were committing violence in order to end torture and establish democracy. George W. Bush boasted repeatedly that "there are no more torture chambers" in Iraq.
I am not only outraged that the US military committed these crimes, but I am extremely alarmed that the images coming out of Abu Ghuraib have damaged US credibility in Iraq beyond repair. Anyone tempted to make light of this issue or dismiss it with feeble and inappropriate comparisons would be making a serious error of judgment.
I've also been reading some very disturbing comments from American people trying to justify the atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan. What the U.S. guards and contractors did was wrong, immoral, illegal and barbaric. It deserves to be punished.
Juan is right to question comparisons between desperate people fighting for their land and an efficient military that has lost its way.
The US army's top law office, Major-General Don Ryder said that since Dec 2002, criminal investigations had been launched into 10 assaults and 25 deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan military prisons. One soldier has been dismissed from the army for killing an Iraqi prisoner. Not one person has been jailed. And every hour new allegations surface of systematic criminal abuse by Coalition troops.
What I can't comprehend is why Bush's popularity is growing in America. Is it true that the Americans believe that Iraqi people are racially inferior and deserve what they get? Why aren't the American people demonstrating, yelling out loud to the World that they don't support such atrocities. Calling for an investigation into the U.S. administration cover-ups of human rights abuse. Questionning what this 'War of Terror' is really about?
It's time for Americans to raise the level of debate. Stop justifying the unjustifiable, and start demanding answers to some pertinant questions.
We do not condone what went on in the prison in Iraq. Also, if you read the message boards on places like Yahoo, you will see that Americans are outraged at Bush. They feel he has gotten us in a war based on false pretenses of WMD's. Hundreds of American soldiers have been killed - hundreds of Iraqis have been killed. Even though I did not agree with the invasion of Iraq, I am still hopeful that there will be a peaceful ending to all of this. It is horrible the way a few soldiers have done so much to ruin the reputation of the American military. I have no clue what can be done to right the wrongs - I just pray it all works out.
Hundreds of Iraqis? Try thousands? Do you think Iraqi soldiers (poor people seeking jobs just like the "volunteer" US military) and civilians killed during the attacks last year don't count?
I am truly disgusted with what happened to the Iraqi detainees. But I guess this is what happens when evil is repaid with evil. The Iraqis killed and tortured Americans and the American soldiers humiliate the detainees. If you want to defend the actions of the Iraqis (over the Fallujah incident) you must also defend the actions of the americans and vice versa. The most important thing here is not whether Muslims are right or wrong, but when is America going to leave Iraq.
Obviously, you have not taken the time to read my blog at all or you would realize that long before this scandal came out, I called what happened at Fallujah sick and even more sick.
Before you make a judgment about a person, you might want to find out what they have actually said.
Personally I think it would be appropriate in the war on terror at this time to re-commission the Enola Gay and Boxcar. It would save many lives and settle the dispute between the parties. There would be peace in the world.
Benjamin Franklin, a great American inventor and politician, once said, "There has never been a good war or a bad peace." Even the thought of bringing nuclear bombs to Iraq and Afghanistan is a terrible thing to post. Pakistan and other countries now have nuclear capabilities.....even American soldiers are coming home with illnesses from depleted uranium being used in the ammunition. I don't know what sort of ammunition we can be using with depleted uranium in them...just think also about the earth and how all this madness is contaminating the environement. I want the US out of Iraq in June....but will the people start killing eachother to gain power? That is what I worry about...all the innocents being killed fighting for power. And the recent blowing up of the Iraqi oil pipeline which Iraq needs for income, it makes no sense. Who would bite the hand that feeds them? In all wars, there are atrocities.....in World War II, my uncle was a prisoner of war in then Burma. The only way he survived was to dig in the earth and ate earthworms. In Vietnam, even American soldiers killed eachother....it's called "flagging"....when a unit fears their commander will lead them into danger, that he was not in his right mind, they would slide a grenade into his tent. I also have heard of soldiers killing their fellow soldiers who they thought would not work well with the unit and put them in danger. I have heard this from Vietnam Veterans. This violence will not stop because Bin Laden wants Saudi Arabia also. War is hell and has been going on since the beginning of time and I predict it will never stop. But bringing out the Enola Gay and the Boxcar idea is too terrible to even think about. I pray for the children who will continue this from generation to generation and hope one day people will treat all people with respect and dignity. But all I can do is pray and pray for everyone, even Bin Laden to seek peace and not revenge and for the world to share it's resources so that all may live in peace and without horrible poverty and homelessness.
Moma says that just mentioning the use of nukes is outrageous. So, words do have meaning and affects! Yes, just like all the dribble and half-truths and non-truths coming out of Arabic news agencies have affects also. Today, the resistance is hiding behind women and children to prolong their inevitable demise. They bring only poverty and oppression and commit acts like the slaughter of Nick Berg (an American Jew who was only interested in rebuilding an Arab-Muslim country).
On the morning of 9/11 one of my first comments to a gentleman waiting with me while our cars were being worked on at the local Pontiac place was this: "It is time to break out the tactical nukes."
Two people in this thread have now advocated mass slaughter of Arabs and/or Muslims (Enola Gay and tactical nukes remarks). And you think that those people are the barbarians? Please take your strange morality somewhere else.
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The Clipboard: Fallujah and Abu Ghuraib
Subject: Tit for tat
I've also been reading some very disturbing comments from American people trying to justify the atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan. What the U.S. guards and contractors did was wrong, immoral, illegal and barbaric. It deserves to be punished.Juan is right to question comparisons between desperate people fighting for their land and an efficient military that has lost its way.
The US army's top law office, Major-General Don Ryder said that since Dec 2002, criminal investigations had been launched into 10 assaults and 25 deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan military prisons. One soldier has been dismissed from the army for killing an Iraqi prisoner. Not one person has been jailed. And every hour new allegations surface of systematic criminal abuse by Coalition troops.
What I can't comprehend is why Bush's popularity is growing in America. Is it true that the Americans believe that Iraqi people are racially inferior and deserve what they get? Why aren't the American people demonstrating, yelling out loud to the World that they don't support such atrocities. Calling for an investigation into the U.S. administration cover-ups of human rights abuse. Questionning what this 'War of Terror' is really about?
It's time for Americans to raise the level of debate. Stop justifying the unjustifiable, and start demanding answers to some pertinant questions.
Subject: How Americans Think
We do not condone what went on in the prison in Iraq. Also, if you read the message boards on places like Yahoo, you will see that Americans are outraged at Bush. They feel he has gotten us in a war based on false pretenses of WMD's. Hundreds of American soldiers have been killed - hundreds of Iraqis have been killed. Even though I did not agree with the invasion of Iraq, I am still hopeful that there will be a peaceful ending to all of this. It is horrible the way a few soldiers have done so much to ruin the reputation of the American military. I have no clue what can be done to right the wrongs - I just pray it all works out.Subject: Re: How Americans Think
Hundreds of Iraqis? Try thousands? Do you think Iraqi soldiers (poor people seeking jobs just like the "volunteer" US military) and civilians killed during the attacks last year don't count?Subject: Why condemn only American soldiers?
I am truly disgusted with what happened to the Iraqi detainees. But I guess this is what happens when evil is repaid with evil. The Iraqis killed and tortured Americans and the American soldiers humiliate the detainees. If you want to defend the actions of the Iraqis (over the Fallujah incident) you must also defend the actions of the americans and vice versa. The most important thing here is not whether Muslims are right or wrong, but when is America going to leave Iraq.Subject: Re: Why condemn only American soldiers?
Obviously, you have not taken the time to read my blog at all or you would realize that long before this scandal came out, I called what happened at Fallujah sick and even more sick.Before you make a judgment about a person, you might want to find out what they have actually said.
Subject: Iraq and Afgan
Personally I think it would be appropriate in the war on terror at this time to re-commission the Enola Gay and Boxcar. It would save many lives and settle the dispute between the parties. There would be peace in the world.Subject: War Atrocities are in every war
Benjamin Franklin, a great American inventor and politician, once said, "There has never been a good war or a bad peace." Even the thought of bringing nuclear bombs to Iraq and Afghanistan is a terrible thing to post. Pakistan and other countries now have nuclear capabilities.....even American soldiers are coming home with illnesses from depleted uranium being used in the ammunition. I don't know what sort of ammunition we can be using with depleted uranium in them...just think also about the earth and how all this madness is contaminating the environement. I want the US out of Iraq in June....but will the people start killing eachother to gain power? That is what I worry about...all the innocents being killed fighting for power. And the recent blowing up of the Iraqi oil pipeline which Iraq needs for income, it makes no sense. Who would bite the hand that feeds them? In all wars, there are atrocities.....in World War II, my uncle was a prisoner of war in then Burma. The only way he survived was to dig in the earth and ate earthworms. In Vietnam, even American soldiers killed eachother....it's called "flagging"....when a unit fears their commander will lead them into danger, that he was not in his right mind, they would slide a grenade into his tent. I also have heard of soldiers killing their fellow soldiers who they thought would not work well with the unit and put them in danger. I have heard this from Vietnam Veterans. This violence will not stop because Bin Laden wants Saudi Arabia also. War is hell and has been going on since the beginning of time and I predict it will never stop. But bringing out the Enola Gay and the Boxcar idea is too terrible to even think about. I pray for the children who will continue this from generation to generation and hope one day people will treat all people with respect and dignity. But all I can do is pray and pray for everyone, even Bin Laden to seek peace and not revenge and for the world to share it's resources so that all may live in peace and without horrible poverty and homelessness.Subject: Re: War Atrocities are in every war
Moma says that just mentioning the use of nukes is outrageous. So, words do have meaning and affects! Yes, just like all the dribble and half-truths and non-truths coming out of Arabic news agencies have affects also. Today, the resistance is hiding behind women and children to prolong their inevitable demise. They bring only poverty and oppression and commit acts like the slaughter of Nick Berg (an American Jew who was only interested in rebuilding an Arab-Muslim country).On the morning of 9/11 one of my first comments to a gentleman waiting with me while our cars were being worked on at the local Pontiac place was this: "It is time to break out the tactical nukes."
I still feel that that was a viable option.
Subject: wow
Two people in this thread have now advocated mass slaughter of Arabs and/or Muslims (Enola Gay and tactical nukes remarks). And you think that those people are the barbarians? Please take your strange morality somewhere else.